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Paul is all gushy about installing a de-facto gun registry under the guise of "microstamping". He, of course, heads off any debate by declaring

Gun lobby criticisms of microstamping sound quite familiar. About this advancement in forensic science they say that “it costs too much,” or “criminals will get around it,” or “only honest gun owners will be penalized,” or – you guessed it – “it’s a ban on guns.” We’ve heard it all before, and like before, it’s all nonsense.

Actually, Paul, the nonsense is part and parcel of your gig, not ours.

Let's take these one at a time shall we? And if any of you hyper-intelligent college credentialed people out there wish to show me where I'm wrong, please do. Granted, from what I've seen, that usually entails insulting me and then running away, but I digress.

"It costs too much" - Well, somebody has to pay for it. I have a feeling that each machine isn't $34.95 at Wal-Mart. Now, Mr. Gun Company doesn't have to pay for it, instead they increase the cost of their firearms so that the end user absorbs the price. Since the Brady Campaign fails on a regular basis in getting laws passed to prevent gun ownership, they go the other route which is make it so hard or expensive that nobody can afford to purchase them. This is only another part of that ploy.

The cost, even if slight, is too expensive for a technology that will not work as explained later.

"The criminals will get around it" - In 30 seconds I can have the firing pin removed from my Glock. In 2 minutes, I can have it out of my Dan Wesson. I'd estimate an hour for the Ruger because it was such a pain in the ass to get the bolt out in the first place, but that's just the sarcasm talking.

So, replacement with a new or used, non stamped pin is a quick job. If I'm wrong, please indicate why.

If replacement is too slow, a simple file would damage the pin enough to circumvent the marking while keeping the pin's ability to strike the primer with enough force in tact. Again, if this is incorrect, a quick note would be nice.

Heaven forbid you use a revolver. They don't drop the spent casings. I bet you'd see an up tick in revolver sales.

However, the most likely scenario is the the criminal, intent on breaking the law with the gun anyway, has not obtained the gun in a manner that would track that serial number to him or her anyway. Most gun crimes use stolen or black market weaponry, why would they care if you can find out who had it last, legally?

"Only honest gun owners will be penalized" - Only law abiding citizens buy their firearms from reputable dealers. We buy them from friends or other individuals as well, and when we do, the tracing of the firearm stops. If I sell my Glock, I don't report the sale to the all seeing government just like when I sell a piano, a pair of ill fitting leather pants, or a lawnmower. And if the firearm is stolen from me, the tracing stops with not even a "Yeah, I know who had it after me".

To enforce this, you'd need to have penalties for having firearms that aren't stamped. Who are the only people who follow the law? The honest gun owners.

"It’s a ban on guns" - No, it's a registry. To make the serial numbers useful, you'd need a database of them tied to the person who (last) owned it. To make this technology work, you would be forced to require that all current firearms are retrofitted with this technology. You would also have to legislate that all firing pin manufacturing would require this technology and then track firing pin sales. That extra amount of work that it takes to keep these types of records handy so the ATF doesn't shut down your store because you put 'Y' instead of 'YES' adds costs onto doing your business.

The loss of the number of gun dealers over the years has nothing to do with the lack of interest in the product, but rather the immense cost of obtaining a license and staying within the ridiculous regulations. This is the only way to ban guns - make them too expensive to bother with. And the Brady Bunch is trying desperately to make this happen.

Of course, even if this technology were mandated, how would you apply it to the millions of firearms already on the market? Would you require each and every handgun be turned in to be stamped? Who would pay for that? The law abiding. Who would actually do it? The law abiding. Who would go to jail for not doing it? The law abiding. And how would you know which gun owners haven't done so without a registry?

To implement this is to continue the move towards a police state, where the government knows everything to ensure "our safety". It does nothing of the sort and only makes more criminals because people like me would refuse to turn in my guns to be identified (several of them have no connection to me whatsoever as they were sold or given to me. Those transactions were never recorded.)

Face it, Paul. Microstamping is a failure of imagination. Sure, it can work only if every gun used in a crime was accurately recorded from manufacturer to last owner and we allowed the police unlimited powers in looking through our personal data.

This is why we gunnies fight these ideas. Because it takes a police state to implement them and when you can track guns in the guise of public safety, there's nothing stopping the government from attaching the words "public safety" to anything in order to give them all the smokescreen they need to abolish the rest of our rights.

Again, if I've made a mistake in any logic here please, using Reasoned Discourse™ and no insults, please illustrate the errors. I'm more interested in the truth than simply 'being right'.

rolled out on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 1:40 PM
Comments
# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - Gregory Morris

Rolled Out On: 8/22/2007 2:53 PM

Well, they'll still argue that "if it saves one life"... the thing is, it won't save one life.

It would probably lead to a few dumb criminals being tracked down. (...who will then plea out of the worst of the charges, spend 4 years in the pen, then be back out raping and pillaging again.)

Other than your "all or nothing" point of view (that both sides of the debate seem to take), I'd say you are dead on. As an engineer, I also have to fight the tendency to demand 100% provable solutions. The real question isn't "will this work?", but "will this work well enough to justify the cost to consumers and taxpayers?" I'd answer that with a loud, firm NO.

You also have to ask "will this significantly damage my rights as a free citizen of these United States", to which the answer is clearly and certainly YES.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - SayUncle

Rolled Out On: 8/22/2007 3:01 PM

MD (iirc) has miscrostamping and it has solved zero cases to date.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - Rustmeister

Rolled Out On: 8/22/2007 3:27 PM

I'd like to see gun manufacturers just stop selling in states that would pass such a law, like Barrett did in Cali.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - DirtCrashr

Rolled Out On: 8/22/2007 8:07 PM

It helps to be really and truly willfully ignorant about guns and blind to reality - that's how he can embrace the noise and nonsense, that and the kool-aid...

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - thirdpower

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 10:19 AM

Reading through their links, it seems the only support they have are themselves (and we all know how accurate their tests are) and the patent holder of the microstamping tech using laboratory idealized setups. Obviously they've never dealt w/ a corporations sales department before.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 10:54 AM

I'm not concerned about the technology actually working or not. Even if it's 100% accurate in its ability to stamp an ID onto a casing and that casing could be read with 100% reliability, the system is too easy to circumvent and too abusive to our rights to be effectively used.

We could just implant RFID chips into everyone and put up monitoring stations everywhere. The technology would work, but think of the violations of the constitution that would need to happen to make it work. The ROI is just not there, nor is it for the Microstamping.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - thirdpower

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 12:36 PM

Of course it's easy to circumvent, just like nearly every other measure supported by the BC. That doesn't matter though as it "might" solve a crime so all the restrictions and regulations are worth it in their words.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - sevesteen

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 12:39 PM

Something I haven't seen talked about yet--What are the licensing terms of this patented technology? Could the company refuse to sell to anyone producing guns they don't approve of?

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - John Hardin

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 5:50 PM

Rustmeister sez:


I'd like to see gun manufacturers just stop selling in states that would pass such a law, like Barrett did in Cali.

I think you need "to the government" somewhere in there - why punish the citizenry when the government passes bad laws?
Heh. Headline News we'd like to see:

In response to California's passage of draconian ammunition control laws, California dealers and American firearms and ammunition manufacturers have banded together to refuse to sell ammunition or sell or service firearms for all branches of the State of California government.

sevesteen - that's another problem with this technology, and why it will cost too much to implement. There is only one company that owns and can provide the microstamping technology. No competition = arbitrarily high prices, which is not a good idea when purchase of your product is mandated by the law!

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 7:54 PM

JH, the problem would be that the federal government would simply revoke their business licenses and surprisingly, all the employees would all of a sudden miraculously get audited.

It's an argument I get in with my dad. I say government only works via the end of a gun and he says they don't need to use a gun, they'll just make your life so miserable you'll bend to their will.

I'm glad the firearm and ammunition companies make the guns & bullets I like to shoot, but I put very little stock in their ability to band together to resist the government. They make a LOT of money off of them and, well, money talks in this world. They'd lose over half of their business instantly, then all it would take is one quisling to sell out, and the others would be out of business before the ink dried on the paper.

# national exercise your rights day - walls of the city

Rolled Out On: 8/23/2007 8:36 PM

I apologize for the relative silence over the past few days, but things come up, as I am quite sure you all are aware. However, something else has come up which is going to take precedence over a few other...

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - j

Rolled Out On: 8/25/2007 4:07 PM

Let's microstamp all the 1/8" Schedule 40 steel pipe, door latches, small pieces of spring, etc. out there while we're at it. Why do people insist that the problem is with technology, and refuse to recognize that the problem is with the people?

Wait, I forgot. Cain killed Abel with Sig P228, right?

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 8/25/2007 4:44 PM

j, don't be ridiculous. The didn't have semi-automatics back then.

It was a Smith & Wesson Model 3, IIRC.

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - Ted

Rolled Out On: 8/25/2007 6:41 PM

Wouldn't it be fun to create 10,000 firing pins that match those in Diane Feinswine's and Rosie O'Fatnell's guns and then shoot up various Fed buildings with them ...?

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - steve tobasko

Rolled Out On: 8/26/2007 12:21 AM

thanks*******
we are getting further and futher from the truth made up,ECT.ECT

# re: Microstamping - A clear cut case of failure of imagination - AJMD

Rolled Out On: 8/28/2007 10:37 PM

THIS nearly hundred-page article from a law review journal, authored by a liberal criminologist and physician co-authors, exposes the kind of FRAUD the average journalist, politician, and even physician is exposed to, and helps explain why these types, without any knowledge of firearms, history, or criminology, can actually BELIEVE these asinine scams:

QUOTE: "Even more unfortunately, CDC and other health advocate sages build their case not only by suppressing facts, but by overt fraud, fabricating statistics, and falsifying references to support them.[261] The following are but a few of the many examples documented in a recent paper co-authored by professors at Columbia Medical School and Rutgers University Law School..."

See on www.dsgl.org (Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws) under the "Favorite Links" page, entitled "Guns and Public Health - epidemic of violence, or pandemic of propaganda?" The "261" gives you an idea of how heavily referenced and thoroughly documented the article is. Print up copies and leave them in waiting rooms, libraries (tucked inside 'gun control' books), and get students to leave copies in the school library as well, so at least the future voters will get a taste of reality when they do their obligatory report on 'gun control as the solution to all evil.'

AJMD

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