Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 1:59 PM

Hey Brother,
Just found your blog.... EXCELLENT STUFF HERE!!

I have WAY MORE rifles than pistols, so I just wanted to put out a quick thought on a rifle/claiber you may enjoy.

Check some manufacturers websites to see who offers what. Then, if you have some friends w/ different rifles, find out what they have (of course NO .223), and ask if you can go shooting w/ them and give em' at try. I have .30-06s & .30-30s too.... both rounds, IMO, are excellent, but serve different needs. + it costs a bit more to feed the 06 than the 3030. Anyways..... some other calibers I enjoy are .243 Winchester, 7x57mm Mauser, and the 7.62x39 (SKS/AK round).

The .243 is a good, long range, tackdriver; I used to hunt groundhogs w/ that one. The 7x57mm Mauser is probably my favorite of all time.... Not too hard on the shoulder & VERY ACCURATE at long range too (I have it in a Ruger M77). The 7.62x39 is a good utility round IMO; but, its accuracy is also good to 100-150 meters.... I have a SKS and it's a fun shooter. The Ruger Mini Thirty is an excellent rifle too.

Yeah, the Winchesters, Remingtons, Rugers are all good. But, let me just say this, don't let anyone tell you that a Marlin or Savage rifle is a no go. I own examples from all of the maker's I've noted.... and I,m particularly fond of my Marlin and Savage rifles; they're made well and are very reasonably priced.

Best of luck on your rifle quest, and keep up the great work on your blog!!

Sincerely,
RonC
Army Vet; NRA Life Member

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 2:35 PM

If you're on a budget, then an SKS will work just perfectly if you want a semi-auto. Cheap ammo -- forget that reloading jive -- and a rifle which is perfectly suitable for killing something out to 300 yards, 400 if no wind. $250 tops.

If you'd prefer to go with a bolt-action, and that would be a good thing, then find a decent mil-surp Lee-Enfield No4. Mk1. Ten rounds in the mag, more accurate than you can shoot it, and the smoothest bolt ever made. $200 for a really good one -- spend the $$, because you want a decent one. Never mind the .303 Enfield "scarcity" -- there's lots of it around from Wolf and/or Prvi Partizan, and it's not as expensive as it used to be. Oh, and if you really want to reload it, no problem.

Almost the same is true of any Mauser 98K -- the Yugo 24/27s are peachy -- except for the mag capacity. There's lots of cheap mil-surp 8x57mm available, but it's corrosive, so be my guest. Reloading is also simple.

If you want something a little less hearty in terms of recoil, then get a Swede Mauser (M96, 6.5x55mm Swede). They're a little more spendy -- $500 or so -- but they're among the most beautiful rifles ever made. Ammo is no problem, albeit a tad more spendy, as Wolf now makes it in their "Gold" line (as they do with .303 Enfield and 8x57mm Mauser, by the way).

Finally, there's always the lever-action road. Out to 150 yards (effective combat distance), a Marlin 1894 in .357 Mag is an absolute joy to shoot (and .38 Spec is super-cheap practice ammo). The tube will hold about a dozen rounds, too, and it's light to carry.

My next rifle, when I have the $$, will be a Marlin in .357 Mag.

Hope this helps.

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 4:11 PM

If you can stretch to $700 or thereabouts it's virtually impossible to beat a Remington Model 700 in Win .308 (as near as dammit to NATO 7.62x51, but SAAMI vs. NATO headspacings are slightly different). Win .308 has roughly the same terminal ballistics as 30-06 in a shorter cartridge, which makes working the bolt a bit easier, and makes it much more suitable for semi-auto and full-auto weapons. If you want semi-auto, then you should be able to pick up an M14 clone in your price range. The Win .308 is probably the finest infantry cartridge for bolt-action and semi-automatic rifles (its use in fully-automatic weapons for anything lighter than a medium machine gun like the FN MAG is precluded due to recoil).

.308 brass is easy to come by. A good-quality piece in this calibre has every claim to be a sniper rifle (I've shot it at 1000 yards with iron sights and made a respectable score - with a scope and experience you can ).

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 4:19 PM

whoops, hit the wrong button:

...with a scope and experience you can make head shots at 500 yds).

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 5:44 PM

It really depends a lot on what you are looking for. If you are looking for a "homeland defense rifle", an AK clone in 7.62x39 would be good. 7.62x39 ammo is relatively easy to come by and cheap enough that it would probably be less expensive than even reloading something in .30-06 or .308. The tradeoff is that it is a medium powered round with less than pinpoint accuracy.

If you really want to go low budget but have a serviceable homeland defense rifle, a Yugo SKS would be perfect. Same round, longer barrel for increased muzzle velocity and accuracy, 10 round fixed box mag but it is easily and quickly recharged with stripper clips. Servicable open sights but can be improved with Williams or Tech-Sights aftermarket aperture sights. Possible to mount a scope or optics but not easily.

As far as bolt action goes, There are lots of options in military surplus and surplus ammo is pretty cheap and easy to come by. The top of the line choices would be Mauser, Enfield, M1903 but there are also Swiiss, Russian, Finn, etc etc etc. If you want something with "common" us made ammo, you should probably go with a typical "hunting" bolt action rifle. I second the person who said not to rule out the less pricey manufacturers. They might not be super-sniper grade, but they shoot better than most of us are capable of.

Milsurp rifles are an excellent place to start as they are relatively inexpensive, generally simple to operate and maintain and of rugged, durable construction.

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 5:46 PM

Hey Robb, I must not have been clear that people leaving comments with suggestions should follow the link here to do it. Instead, they've been leaving some good suggestions in these comments.

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 7:08 PM

A lot of good information so far Rob. The mil-surps mentioned by Kim and the others are a great choice, and I don't have anything to add there.

If you are looking for a new manufacture bolt action in the $500 range, you really can not beat a Howa. I'll email a couple links.

Rolled Out On: 5/7/2007 8:05 PM

Third vote for the SKS. I don' t know from reloads but the perp is going to Know. It. when hit with a 7.62x39mm round.

Plus, sexycool:

<img src="http://farm1.static.flickr.com/35/72675437_5e26e50069.jpg" width="500" height="332" alt="shooting day" />

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 6:49 AM

Robb, I have to admit that the SKS is a good choice for an SHTF rifle. However... at a recent Appleseed Shoot, there was one gun on my side of the line that experienced ZERO malfunctions and went BANG every time: my M1 Garand. I'm not sure if you can find one for under $500, but honestly, no matter what other rifles I have, Betsy (Yes, I named her - she's an All American Girl) is the one I'll reach for if I have to reach out and touch someone.

Reliable, 8-round clips that let reloading be quick and easy, and best of all, a 30-06 WILL let someone know he's been nudged.

Good luck with whatever you choose, and may it be as reliable as Betsy is.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 7:33 AM

I'll second the motion for a lever action in .357/.38. It'll share ammo nicely with your revolver and is a ton of fun. Mine has a ghost ring sight and octagonal barrel of 20". Aquired it secondhand, like new for $465. Patience pays off in the end. Easy on the shoulder too which makes it a good choice for teaching new shooters.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 8:02 AM

Robb;

Kim duToit is a dyed-in-the-wool bolt-action kinda guy. He loves them. Well, that's his thing, and he is perfectly right in believing so.
Me, I like a semi-auto, only because if I've got a bead on it, not having to disturb my sight picture by coming off the grip to cycle the bolt is a good thing.
BUT, you must have the right kind of semi. Kim loves his Euro types - Mauser, SKS, etc. Well, yes, the Mauser is one of the finest actions ever made, especially the 98.
But ya know, it's funny; Mauser designed and built the rifles Germany carried in two world wars. Enfield ALMOST copied it for their designs.
But WHO WON those wars?
Springfield Armory.
WW I: 1903 Springfield, bolt-action, 30-06 round.
WW II: M1 - Garand, I think(!) designed and perfected at the Springfield Armory; gas semi-auto, basically 30-06 round. The OTHER M1 was the M1 Carbine, designed at the Springfield Armory using almost a giant pistol round; and it was as deadly, in the brush where the long-range of the M1903 wasn't important, as the M1903.

Do you see where I'm going here?

Kim is probably more familiar with the Euro models, because growing up in S. Africa, he would have SEEN Euros more than US models. And NO, I am NOT knocking Kim for being S. African; one pass through his blog and anyone with the brains God gave my left testicle will tell anyone he is a Good Guy. But he DOES love his Euro rifles. No big deal; not his fault.

Here on this side of the pond, US weaps and ammo will be more readily available in ANY situation, be it SHTF, weekend plinking, or covering the dinner table. And probably cheaper for quality stuff.

There are M1 Carbine knockoffs available under any flat rock. Ruger makes the Mini Thirty. And there are other, more exotic rifles using the standard .30 carbine load. Look seriously, for both price and availability, at them FIRST.
Besides, a rifle like that will get you well-armed without pissing off the GFW idiots. And while that's always fun, it gets counter-productive when all you want is a reliable longarm. Leave the GFW-baiting for Kim, and for the Red Dawners.

Of course, I like the .223/5.56 crowd, but that's just because I first qualified on an M-16; don't YOU fondly remember YOUR first love? And they're NOT all 'assault rifles'.

Just MY opinion.

Jim

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 8:32 AM

Robb,
Sounds like you really appreciate an accurate rifle from your description of shooting your .22. Hands down the most accurate and ecomomical rifle on the market today is the Savage bolt action 110 and variants. The trigger is better than most rifles costing three times as much and it comes in a wide variety of calibers. I guess my caliber choice for a do it all rifle would be 308 or 30-06. A little more recoil and cost of ammo but you can shoot or hunt anything in N. America and not be undergunned. Loaded down with cast bullets either make wonderful small game rifles or with lighter bullets zipping along at 3000+ fps they do the trick on varmints. While I have Rugers, Winchesters, Remiingtons, and others I don't think you can beat the value of a Savage rifle today.

AA

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 8:37 AM

I'll throw my $0.02 in. As some have said, the rifle you choose should be based on what you want to do with it.

Lever guns in .30-30 are good for 150 yds (200 w/ match grade ammo). The pistol calibers are good 100 yd guns. My Marlin 30A is a hog murdering machine. It's pretty consistent MOA accurate @ 100 yds. Winchester is dying and IIRC, have stopped making lever guns. I could be wrong on that. Browning (like Winchester is owned by FN) makes very expensive lever guns. Rossi (imported from Brasil) makes a Puma lever gun based on the Win '92 patent. They are pretty good, but you have to treat them rough. Slam the lever down and back up and it will chamber every time. Baby it and it will jam.

Bolt guns are for accuracy and distance. There is no finer action than the Mauser. The SMLE (Brit. Lee Enfield) is faster, but takes a bit of getting used to. The Swede 96 is so fine, I own 3. The Mauser K98 (I have 2 occupied Czech BRNO's) is such a good action that Winchester based their M 70 on it. The pre-1964 Winchester M 70 is the "rifleman's rifle". They cost a small fortune. The Rem. M 700 isn't cheap either. Both are very fine rifles. CZ currently makes a Mauser action rifle that's around $300 and very much like the pre-64 M 70. Savage rifles are not fancy, but accurate for an inexpensive rifle. My favorite rifle is the Browning A-Bolt. Mine is in .300 Win Mag. It costs $1 everytime I pull the trigger, so I don't practice with it much. It kills deer dead and you don't have to chase them. I almost forgot the K31 Swiss. 7.5 mm isn't cheap, but it isn't that expensive either.

Semi-autos are fun. The action takes out some of the recoil at the expense of accuracy. For inexpensive good times you can't beat an SKS or AK clone. About $4-5 for 20 rounds. The Rem 7400 is not a MOA rifle. It has more range than an SKS, but not more accuracy. For real accuracy in a semi-auto, you will have to pay for a Garand or M1A. If the AR is not a consideration at this time, there is no need to discuss it. The Mini-30 may be an option, but it is in the just over $500 range. I prefer the SKS to the Mini-30. You might find an FN 59 or an SVT-40 in your price range. There are also the CETME and G3 variants, but avoid the Century Arms conversions.

Calibers 7.62x39 - cheap, fun, not a lot of range (200 yds). .308 - Not as cheap, long range, mil-surp available. 8mm, 7mm, 6.5mm Mausers - mil-surp available, watch for corrosive, fun, long range. .30-06 - more expensive than .308, but some mil-surp to be had, watch for corrosive, long range, more recoil. .30-30 Win. - The most fun in a lever gun, not expensive, 150 yds, low recoil. Pistol calibers - less range, less expense than anything but .22 and 7.62x39, very low recoil.

I hope this helps.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 8:47 AM

Get an M1 Garand *NOW* while they can still be had. You get a semi-auto rifle with great sights, 30-06 power AND access to surplus ammo (unlike 7.62x51mm). If you have only one rifle, this is it. You can use it for hunting, competition, long range riflery, and combat. Its only disadvantage is the 8 round capacity. Clips are getting rare too.

If the Garand doesn't work for you, then look at the AK-47 in 7.62x39mm (not 5.45x39mm). The AK will do everything a carbine should do and be reliable. If you have to have an AR-15, then spend the money and get a really good one--but will take you into $1000+ territory. A mid-grade AK, such as an Armory USA AK is a good weapon to have. They're better built than the Century imports (Romanian WASRs and SARs--useful, reliable, but not pretty). You would also be well served by a Yugoslavian AK.

The advantage of the AK-47 over the Garand is the lighter cartridge. Yes, lighter. The reason: the job for which it is intended is close range fighting. It can reach out to 300 yards or so if needed, but the reality of fighting is that most will occur within 100 yards or less. You get 30 round magazine capacity (with options for 20 and 40).

If all that doesn't appeal to you, then a standard 30-30 lever gun may be the way to go. It's "PC" and can be used for fighting and hunting. You should be able to score a used one for around $200-250. Nothing really needs to be changed...just get a ammo dump pouch, fill it up with ammo, and you're good to go. A sling may come in handy, if only to keep the gun on you if you need to transition to handgun. See this thread:

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?t=649

This thread is huge and will take you awhile to read. Look around in the "Fighting Leverguns" forum for additional stuff.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 8:52 AM

You guys abso-friggin-lutely rock. I'm honored to have such great advice.

Yardage - I'm not concerned beyond 200 yards. I live in a standard neighborhood so 200 yards pretty much covers me and all my immediate neighbors (those beyond that range should protect themselves).

The hardest part here is going to be simply choosing. Lots of good data though, so again, thank you all.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 9:01 AM

"Again, I don't care about looks. I don't need the tactical rail with picatinny doodads, black polycarbonate folding thingamabogs, and a spiky thing to indicate which end is the bad end."

If one is buying a picatinny rail or flash hider for looks, one is indeed wasting one's money.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 9:29 AM

Rob:

Given your parameters, you can easily score an Enfield .303, a Mauser K98, and possibly a Springfield 03 or an M1 Garand. Either one will serve beautifully, and ammo is not a problem. On the second tier would be an M1 Carbine or a lever-action 30-30. Enjoy!

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 9:42 AM

I say get yourself a Marlin 336 in 30-30. It is a very practical "if you can only have one" type of rifle. You can hunt medium to big game with confidence out to 150 yds. You can plink to your hearts content and it will serve you well as a self defense carbine.

If you want a rifle, don't mess with those pistol calibres get a freaking rifle for chrissakes.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 9:49 AM

I have an M-48 as my "go to" rifle. They can still be found in good condition and are of a proven disign. They are simple to work on too. Good luck.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 9:56 AM

No one has mentioned the Mosin Nagants yet. Cheap. Cheeeeap. Rugged. Bolt action. Ammo is plentiful and cheap. 7.62x54R is supposed to hit like a .308 or 30-06. 5-round capacity is a bit of a bummer. Get a Finn M-39 ($200) and they're supposed to be tack drivers. With no modifications (better trigger (cheap), aperture sights (cheap)), my M-44 ($80) and 91/30 ($70) can hit an 18" target at 180 yards. I can't even see that far. Someone who can see could hit even better.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 10:22 AM

Want something fun to shoot that packs a decent punch over a modest range and doesn't eat ammo that'll cost you a fortune? Try a Marlin 1894C lever-action rifle. Shoots the same stuff as that Dan Wesson .357 you got. Simple, light, accurate, and easy to clean.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 10:31 AM

rifles.

for bolt action

Mosin Nagant in 7.62x54R 1/5 the cost of 308 and roughly equal ballistics. avoid the carbines. 125$

Schmitt-Rubin K-31 ammo is harder to get, but dear god are they well made and accurate. 150$

Self-loading rifles, light.

SKS. 7.62X39 cheap, ugly, plentiful. 150$ ammo is mega cheap.

AK47 clone. 7.62X39 more of the same, but detached magazine. 300-500$

Self-loading rifles, heavy.

FAL, CETME. 308 400-600 lots of parts around, quality is hit or miss.

SVD clones 7.62X54R 500-600 same

hakim MBR 8mm 300-500

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 10:56 AM

I'm gonna second Dave D.'s suggestion.

Get a lever action rifle in .357 magnum (or .44 magnum if you have a pistol in that caliber.)

They hit at least as hard as an M-1 Carbine, and you won't have to keep a different ammo set .

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 11:08 AM

I'm getting in here late and I'm going to echo the sentiment of many with a recommendation for the SKS. I love mine. Cheap to buy, cheap to shoot, goes bang every time. Modifications are simple, cheap and entirely optional- I like my rear mounted peep sight and it makes the rifle more accurate than I am.

Here's another choice I haven't seen recommended, the Mini 30 from Ruger. Same shape and practicality of the Mini 14 in that "glorified 22" caliber you don't care for in the 7.62 X 39 caliber of the SKS or AK. Magazines available from 5 rounds to 30, no gas tubes to clog or clean, no "military" look. $400 and up, still pretty affordable.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 11:26 AM

Maximum Range 200 yards, Hard Hitting, urban environment... Sounds like the SKS would be your ideal solution to me.

When I was in your position, but in a more rural environment I made do with a Surplus Mauser in 7x57. Later I upgraded to a SAFN-49 in 8x57. Finally I got my Garand. All great guns but unless you're very careful about where you shoot in a defensive scenario your neighbors (several houses or possibly blocks away) in a urban environment will not like the high caliber bullets whizzing through their homes.

Now that I live in an urban environment I use an AR-15 (based on the FBI studies showing the 5.56 round is best in an urban environment). However I wouldn't feel too undergunned with an SKS. I would add a rear aperture sight from tech-sights though. The standard SKS sights are terrible IMO.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 12:03 PM

Not sure what happend the first time I tried this, but.....

If you want to touch someone, you want .50 cal

If you want .50 call (or bigger), for under $500, you go 12 gauge with a rifled barrel and sabots.

Easily accurate to 100 yards, some will get you to 200 yards.

You can also get a second barrel for bird/clay pigeon shooting, and easily stay under $500.

Recoil can be an issue - thats a personal thing. For me at 6.5, 275 lbs - its not an issue. For you - well, sabots help on the recoil, and you can do certain things to reduce it.

Personally at 100 yards or more, I like the scope option - I really want to hit what I am shooting. A .50 cal sabot will punch through alot of things - great for shooting through brush, but it will penetrate cinderblocks too - so remember that gun control is a great thing.


If not the .50 cal (aka 12 gauge), I vote SKS - freaking cheap, accurate to 100/150, lots of ammo. You could buy one for each member of the family - why arm one person when you have your own plattoon?

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 12:29 PM

One thing to keep in mind if you're considering a Ruger Mini-30 (7.62x39mm) is that not all of them like to be fed the inexpensive Berdan-primed Russian ammo. I had one (note the past tense) that really disliked that stuff, and would only fire reliably on a steady diet of Remington brass-cased, Boxer-primed ammo. Big $$$. Lots of other people (maybe most) report no problems using the cheap Wolf stuff in the Mini-30, but it is NOT guaranteed to work because the firing pin protrusion is way less than in an SKS.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 2:07 PM

Just like the handguns, there is no free lunch.
My first choice might be a 1903A3, 30.06, bolt action, accurate, ammo available and cheaper than a lot of calibers.
M-1 Garand is choice 2. Semi-auto, still 30.06. More parts and a good one that won't need some TLC and a new barrel is going to be more than $500.00
My 3rd choice, and a very serious contender is a K31. A Swiss rifle, cost about $150 to $180.
The 7.5 swiss ammo is pricey, but it is an easy caliber to reload, and it uses the same .308 bullets as U.S. calibers. Very accurate, easy to mount a scope on. Ballistics very similar to 30.06, since it uses the same bullets and powders, in the same approximate loads. If you can find someone who has one and arrange to shoot it, you might get hooked like I did.
All of these are old wood stocked military rifles. Some are going to be in better shape than others. Find one with a good barrel that has not been mistreated and you will have a rifle that will serve you well for a lifetime.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 3:47 PM

I thought when I read the description of what you would like that you were describing an SKS. It is a very good choice.

Another that you might like is an L1A1. It is 7.62 Nato or because it has a gas port that can be adjusted to cycle reliably without beating up the firearm .308 Winchester. These cartridges are dimensionally identical with the Nato round being slightly weaker. The gas port will allow you to shoot it without placing extra stress on the action.

I have both. I consider my best SHTF rifle to be my L1A1 (it has been politically corrected to a one piece Zytel stock, no flash hider or bayo lug) but my GodF! is it ever accurate! I paid $435 for it a dozen years ago,and I don't know if they are still available.

However, I lean toward recommending for you the SKS as that most aptly fits the description of your needs. Mine is a Russian and I love it. The only bad rap I can give it is that it has a short length of pull to accomodate a shorter person in heavy winter clothing. That can be rectified for a couple of bucks with butt pad made for it that even leaves access for the storage compartment in the butt that holds the cleaning kit for it. I paid only $125 for it. I understand they go for twice that now. However, that keeps you well within you price range, gives you a very reliable and tough firearm that is a model of simplicity and longevity. And a plus for it is that in addition to a lot of surplus ammo availability there is a lot of U.S. made ammo that is perfect for it as it is designed for the Ruger Mini 30, which is a very nice firearm but gives you nothing better than does the SKS at a much higher price.

Good luck.


Good luck.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 4:34 PM

Most bang for your buck would be a Mosin Nagant 1891. 7.63x54R. Close
to a 30/06. Ammo is pretty cheap. The Russians made billions of rounds. It's
not a pretty rifle, to most, but beauty is what you want it to be. Pretty good ones
available still. Seems they made a lot of them. Also, indestrucable. And has a
handy bayonet.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 4:53 PM

cREbralFIX: No worries about the Garand going out of existence; Fulton and Springfield, as far as I know, are both making brand new ones as fast as people will buy them.

They're not cheap; in fact they cost as much as an M1/M14, which I'd personally prefer, but they're not endangered.

The cheap (under-$1000) Garand's days are numbered if not already over, though.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 5:08 PM

I guess this is non-responsive but how about a shotgun?

I'm more of a handgun guy too. I have several rifles but far and away my favorite long gun is my Mossberg 590. Nine rounds of #4 buckshot and you're good to go. I also keep a couple of rifled slugs in the sling in case I'm ever attaced by a Buick.

The 590 lists around $550 but the 500 "Persuader" looks great for around 200 less.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=5&section=products

If you prefer, Remington makes a pretty decent pump also.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 6:16 PM

Bucket - The shotgun is a given. Need one for "internal home defense" that the Mrs. isn't going to be overpowered by. Maybe 20 gauge. External defense to be provided by said rifle. Street defense provided by Glock.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 7:00 PM

I would have to echo most of what has been said about the SKS. I have one that my uncle brought back from Vietnam and it will still put 20 rounds in a head sized target at 200 yards with open sights.

I don't know why people are saying that the SKS has a fixed magazine, though. Any SKS (yes, even including the cheap Yugo models available now) can be easily converted to a detachable magazine. I have seven mags for mine ranging from 10 round to 40 round.

The SKS if far more accurate than the AK, it is easier to shoot (less recoil) than the AK and is cheaper. There are just as many "accessories" for the SKS as there are for the AK and it is simply a more comfortable rifle. Regardless of what your prefered shooting configuration is, the SKS can accomadate (I prefer a pistol gripped configuration due to YEARS spent long range distance shooting competitions).

I also own a .308 single shot H&R survivor (they run about 140$) that will put five rounds into a 1" group at 300 yards. If you aren't concerned about it being a single shot, I would definitely recommend this gun to anyone - light weight, low recoil for a .308 due to it's configuration, AMAZING accuracy and low price.

Moorcat

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 9:24 PM

Yugoslavian SKS. Stay away from the Chicom ones. Don't spend less than $200, and you probably don't want one that is under $100. (Probably, but maybe there is a really good deal out there.)

The Yugo SKS is the rifle version of your Glock. It's ugly, but it always goes bang when you hit the switch.

Rolled Out On: 5/8/2007 11:27 PM

I would recommend the all american (ok some Norwegian) Krag Jorgensen in .30-40, good enough for Teddy Roosevelt in Cuba. the .30-30 gets lots of deer every year, and the .30-40 has a bit more umph. The 5 round bin is certainly adequate for defense, and base of fire work, you should keep the bin full, and shoot single shots from your most available loop. You pretty quickly get the knack of holding several rounds between the fingers of your off hand.

Over 100 years old, and still, dirt cheap, especially in the sportsterized (aka bubba-ized) versions that originally sold for 5 bucks or so, and had a hunter stock added. You have to clean it from the muzzle, or get extra training on how to remove the bolt. (a design feature to keep soldiers from swapping bolts.)

The Krag cartridge is .30 caliber, 2400 feet per second with a 180 grain bullet, and has taken every kind of animal on this continent, (two and 4 legged). That has a big advantage over the soviet M-43 round which has similar velocity with much lower bullet weight. States that don't permit deer hunting with a M1943 have no problem with a .30-30 or .30-40.

Rolled Out On: 5/9/2007 2:55 AM

Late again <sigh>
*My* choice would be a .30-30 lever. Marlin, or a used Winchester if you run across one.
If you like the idea of a rifle and a handgun in the same caliber, you can go with a .357 or a .44 Mag. If you're a bolt kinda guy, durn near everyone is making a fairly inexpensive package w/ a scope these days. I really like the Savage, but that's just me. Not a thing wrong with any of the Mil Surps mentioned either. Just some are harder to find ammo for than others. If you fancy a semi auto, it's hard to beat an SKS for cheap and reliable.
If it was me. I'd stop by a couple shops and see what felt good.....to me! THEN make up my mind. Good luck, have fun on the search <grin>

Rolled Out On: 5/9/2007 12:03 PM

My husband had nothing but Ruger M77 rifles, in several calibers, when we married, so my experience is limited to those. Good bolt-action rifles, easy to care for and use, and reliable as all get out. We sold several of them (all about 20 years old, and still working like new) a couple of years ago for less than $300 - so finding a used one would be pretty simple, I'm guessing.

OT - Your image showing the Dan Wesson .357 caught my eye - since my husband has one he loves. Does yours have the 4 interchangeable barrels as well? When he puts the 8" barrel on the sucker, I can barely keep it level to shoot straight ;-)

Rolled Out On: 5/9/2007 12:21 PM

Barb, that's a matter of debate. Check out this picture and you'll see it doesn't appear to have the shroud nut on the muzzle. When my father gave it to me, it was just how you see it. Add to the fact that it's the only Model 15 I've ever seen without a vented rib, and I'm wondering if I have something other than a Model 15 or of I have some version that has a fixed barrel.

I'd love to have another 2".

Of barrel I mean... Seriously.

Rolled Out On: 5/9/2007 3:48 PM

My first reaction after reading through your criteria was an Mosin-Nagant (7.62x54R), an M38 or M44, that has had its throat erosion OK'd. Simple, fairly light, short and extremely powerful, yet cheap ammo that is now widely available. KdT comments are the best info on the milsurp stuff (his British SMLE recommedation is excellent, IMO), as he is an aficionado of the milsurp rifles, and has owned many of them. Hard to beat the bang-for-the-buck with the MN or any of the Mausers currently on the market, with the Yugo 48 being high on the availability scale in my area right now. The 8x57, as stated elsewhere, here, is every bit the cartridge that one would need for dispatching anything short of heavy game or penetrating hardened targets. Either rifle would set you back less than your stated maximum sum, with a good quantity of ammo as well.

That said, I don't own either of those rifles, as I'm kinda interested in semi-autos and commercial hunting rigs (Steyr, excellent, but expensive).

This may seem like heresy by many here, but I tend to eschew the SKS and AK, given your parameters, though the range you are giving tends to lend it to that role. I just can't get excited about mid-power carbine cartridges, and instead, I'd concentrate on full power rifle calibers. My two cents.

Test as many rifles as you can get your hands on. You can't beat the "feel" test on the guns that have been listed in this thread.

Rolled Out On: 5/10/2007 2:04 AM

Not an M1 Garand if you want my little2cents. I had one in ROTC in the 60's, learned to assemble it blindfolded. It's really heavy and is the perfect gun for shooting in wide open spaces across valleys and such. In tight quarters if you want a great gun get something like the M1 carbine, or even a 22 LR semi-auto clip feed.

Your pistol whipped feeling is the same as the men behind front lines in WW2, with only the 45 or the M1. They couldn't hit the side of a barn with the 45 and the M1 was always somewhere else or just not issued to them.

Ok, well you are a sharpshooter, no? In a self-defense course I took, they said statistically, if you hit someone with more than one round they are likely to die. But with only one shot, it's like 97 percent likely they will live, even if it's a bigger caliber than 22 and even at close range.

The hit on Bugsy Siegel was done with a WW2 M1 carbine. He was seated on the couch with the hit man outside the window. Yet a lot of shots missed. Out of 10 shots, 4 hit him. Under pressure even a war veteran can miss. You don't need penetration or range, you need volume. Only a semi-automatic in 357 or 38, etc would do that. Also, your budget, if you buy a cheap gun from the war will keep you low on ammunition. You could run out of shots just because you're broke, just when you need to hit that Bugsy in your neighborhood, right?
Your problem in a tight situation or even a gang war will be the same as in WW2 behind the lines. Malcolm X used a 30 round clip in his M1 carbine for urban fights. You can't beat that.

Silly. This defense thing is just silly. The soldiers weren't even this worried. Your cellphone's more dangerous when you drive. A friend of mine's home was a fortress of defender guns and they all got stolen while he was out! Now he suspects everyone he knows. People were scared of him before, now he's just considered eccentric...and a pain. Oh well.

have fun,
Bob

Rolled Out On: 5/10/2007 6:10 AM

Well, I see a number of options here, but mainly just two or three. Here are some additional (and unmentioned) criteria I see you noting:

- General, all purpose
- under 200 yards engagement (hunting game or otherwise)
- and in all likelihood, -good- iron sights so that you can shoot out the eye of a grizzly, if needbe
- no mention of "high capacity", but you do mention bolt actions, so I'm guessing that's not a criteria
- general comfort and shootability of the rifle

For anything under 200 yards, you don't need a "large rifle" cartridge like .30-06, .308 (ballistically identical to .30-06 for all intents and purposes, but in a shorter case), .270 winchester (smaller bullet than .30-06, flatter shooting, same cartridge length - in fact, identical cartridge but necked down), or any of the magnum cartridges. As you don't want a .22 caliber, I'll assume you don't want any other of the "small rifle" chambered rifles, like the .243 (which is just a bit faster than .223 and a bit larger). Due to your cost criteria as well as your availability criteria, this pretty much means no esoteric chamberings, either, which rules out a lot of the "medium" sized rifle cartridges (there being small, medium, large, and 'magnum' - classifications I've made up just now to distinguish between small, medium, and large bullet sizes, followed by magnums which are similar to pistol magnums in that they have a lot more bang, but varied bullet/cartridge sizes).

Anyway, I ramble.

There are certainly quite a few options, but a couple stick out in my mind due to their availability and universality, as well as for their utility.

First: the AK-47. You can get a cheap one for $400. It's chambered in 7.62x39 Russian which is readily available both in cheap steel cases from Wolf, as well as in brass (so it can be reloaded for, drastically increasing its accuracy).
Second: SKS (Norinco for about $250, Yugoslavian for under $200 which has a longer barrel and grenade launcher - ie front heavy, or Russian for about $300 which is the best manufactured but also more difficult to find). A bit more accurate than the AK (and in the case of the Yugo) can be fired like a straight bolt action and is a little bit more accurate still.

Rolled Out On: 5/10/2007 6:12 AM

NOTE: Sorry, I had to post twice because it wouldn't tkae the whole post in a single box. I'm sorry for being a blow hard, and do hope you find all the hot air useful.

... continued....


Both of these have the disadvantage of dinging up your brass as it's ejected. They also have some pretty crude sights with a short radius, making them "minute of bad guy" weapons - though, you can achieve 2-3" groups with them just the same. Ask me and I can share more of my opinion on the differences between the SKSs - I personally like them despite their shortcomings, as they're pretty much indestructible (left a Yugo out in the rain after de-greasing, brought it in, dried it off, and left it in my workshop (where it still sits close to 10 months later to me getting distracted) and it's yet to rust on me. Far fetched, yeah, and I can't explain it, but it's true.

Third and, I think, most significant: Then you've got a .30-30 chambered weapon, most likely a lever action. This is what first came to my mind while reading your post: it's the "all American" rifle. (I should note that I don't personally own one, though I'm toying with the idea due to how nicely they index and how evenly they balance). The ammo is relatively cheap and available, and easily reloaded. It's got a longer case than most other rifle cartridges, and significantly longer than 7.62x39, because it was originally made for black powder. However, ballistically, .30-30 win is only slightly hotter than 7.62x39. This is what I'd get, I think. You can get a Marlin Model 336 in .30-30 for under $300 used and about $360 or so new if you look around. They're quite readily available.

Fourth: Any number of military surplus (bolt action) rifles will fit your bill of under $500, from a British Enfield (anywhere from $100 for a sporterized one up to $300 or so I think) chambered in .303 British (a bit hotter than .30-06, IIRC) to a Russian Mosin Nagant (more variants than I recall - at least half a dozen) all shooting 7.62x54 Russian. Ammo for these rifles isn't as readily available, but if you're going to reload, I believe the supplies are commonly available.

For clarification's sake, .303 British, .30-06, .308 Win, 7.62x54 Russian, and whatever the Mauser is chambered in (8mm something? I can't recall) are all roughly the same, ballistically, as I understand it. They foreign chamberings are more likely found in surplus rifles, of course.

Rolled Out On: 5/10/2007 11:29 PM

These are pretty: http://www.keiththompsonart.com/pages/arms.html
Pretty enough to frame.

Rolled Out On: 5/12/2007 6:01 PM

A doctoral thesis could be conducted on your seemingly simple query, and a lot of it boils down to the recommendation that you gain access to a range and sample various platforms before acquiring one. Believe me though, if you got a modern AR you'd enjoy plinking it to no end, but I do share your trepidation for using a varmint caliber for serious social work. A Ruger Mini-30 might fit the bill, but again, try it before plunking down the cash. Also, think about a 12 or 20 gauge shotgun, too. 3 longarms every man should own:

A 22 lr
A shotgun
Something with legs that can repel boarders

Rolled Out On: 5/12/2007 8:41 PM

I've got loads of rifles and shotguns.My go to is a 12ga. coach gun,loaded up with double oo buck shot.Cheap to use and reload if you like.Good for distance and accuracy.You could easily shoot through a wall if need be,or disperse a whole crowd if needed.As far as a rifle,my go to has always been an original Remington bolt action in 257 Roberts.Hope that helps you out.
Chris

Rolled Out On: 5/13/2007 9:04 AM

Lots of good advice here as to rifles. Let me add to the mix a bit.

1 - get to an Appleseed shoot to meet good folks and learn to work your rifle in 2 days.
schedule at: http://www.rwva.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=42
This may very well be some of the best and lowest priced training you can get. The idea is to give you the skills and knowledge in one day so you can take home and improve on your own.
LOTS of good information for the novice/rusty rifleman at:
http://www.rwva.org/oldsite/

2 - Borrow or buy a copy of the book Boston's Gun Bible which features head-to-head comparisons of the main battle rifles from the past half century or so.
http://javelinpress.com/bostons_gun_bible.html

3 - I can recommend Gabe Suarez as an excellent trainer for real world situations.
If you do decide to to with an AK of some sort, he offers the only AK specific class I know of. The basic and defensive rifle courses are open to any bolt, lever, semi-auto rifle that you would want to trust your life to.
https://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/index.asp

Take care,
JT

Rolled Out On: 5/14/2007 12:56 AM

Whatever you choose, I offer you (and all NOR members for the month of May) a wholesale price.

See Traction Control’s Commercial link where I list over 30,000 items in stock; 12,233 of these are long guns.

Inventory updated daily! Retail Prices are shown - ask for the wholesale prices via email.

Reminder: Don’t forget to consider your Constitutional right to possess Full Auto weapons either! There is a significant delay for BATFE approval for Class III weaponry, but once the proper paperworks done, it’s cool.

Traction Control would be proud to be your NOR dealer of choice! Let me know what I can do for you.

Rolled Out On: 5/14/2007 1:03 AM

P.S. Sharp as a Marble is now added to the Traction Control blogroll.