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I’ve been involved in quite a few conversations lately, both online and in real life (did you realize you can actually speak to real people?). A common thread in these conversations is politics or particular views on events. One thing I try to do when composing arguments is to frame them from a different perspective so that the other party must defend something they’ve not thought out completely, thus exposing the weaknesses in their logic.

For example, racism. When I speak of racism or bigotry, I always use a minority as the offender. The reason I do so is because of the stereotype of the white man. Whitey is always the antagonist when it comes to racial issues. Listen to people when they construct their arguments regarding racism. It usually has the white man denying the black man something. When I frame the argument as an Asian denying a white man his pork fried rice, the most interesting things tend to happen. Either the person will reword my argument to have Mr. Whiteskin as the antagonist or they’ll simply dismiss my statement as irrelevant to the argument at hand (I assume because it doesn’t fit their logic). This is the point where I usually can pick apart their logic*.

Another point is bigotry, real or perceived. When I talk about gay issues I always talk about a gay person refusing to assist a straight person. Or sexism – I make a woman the bad person in the scenario. And the same thing happens. The person I’m chatting with will rephrase the situation so that their preconceived stereotypes can be used or they’ll claim I’m peddling sophistry.

It’s just something interesting I’ve done for a while, and surprisingly have had the same results from people. Any psychologists out there wanna show me where I’m wrong or right?

*Quite often, the opposite happens. By reframing the argument from a different perspective, I force myself to reconsider my premise!

rolled out on Friday, April 22, 2005 12:31 PM
Comments
# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - Nathan of Brainfertilizer

Rolled Out On: 4/22/2005 3:02 PM

...and here I thought I was the only one you cared enough to insult!

My illusions are shattered. That's it. I'm going to a big hairy public delinking, as soon as I finish unifying Quantum theory with Einstein's Relativity.

# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - Haacked

Rolled Out On: 4/23/2005 2:55 AM

Aww man, I had written this eloquent comment on this post and it didn't post. You're site was down.

Anyways, I agree that discrimination of any kind (reverse or otherwise) is wrong. But the reason you see discrimination of "whitey" (as you put it) discussed more than discrimination by non-"whitey" is due to the fact that in America at least, the power structure is predominantly made up of white people.

That's not say that all white people are in power, but look at the CEOs for example of top say 500 companies in the US and what percentage are run by white people vs black, asian, or latino.

The point being that discrimination by a minority has less power to exclude than discrimination by the majority. So the white man who didn't get his pork fried rice, well that sucks. But at least he's much more likely to be a CEO (or some such corporate role) than the asian guy (especially if the guy's a waiter, but that's besides the point).

Once again, that doesn't mean discrimination is excused, but it does mean it should be looked at in perspective. It's the difference between throwing a rock and shooting a bazooka.

# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 4/23/2005 10:08 PM

Nope. I cannot accept any racism as ok. Ever. It is all wrong, from the pork lo mein to CEO. There is no perspective on it as there is never a time when it is permissable. To turn your eye is to accept.

And from what I've read, the CEO issue is due to statistics, not racism. Minorities statistically will hold fewer offices because there are fewer minorities. This is why many fortune 500 companies are shelling out $50,000 signing bonuses to minority MBA graduates. Wish I could find the link, but it's no longer working.

# Re: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - haacked@gmail.com (Haacked)

Rolled Out On: 4/25/2005 12:17 PM

Even adjusted for statistics, it's fewer. And I'm not asking you to accept racism. Let's put it this way, do you accept theft or lying? Certainly you'd agree that both are bad. But stealing bread to eat is much less a transgression than say stealing a car. Likewise a white lie is less than an Enron lie. It's an issue of degrees. It's not all black and white.

# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 4/25/2005 12:32 PM

I think what point you're trying to make is intent rather results. A person a race X denying a person of race Y a bowl of soup is bad, but not as bad as a person of X denying Y a job. That I will totally agree with. But the fact of which race X & Y are are irrelevant to the equation and until that's understood, we'll never combat racism.

Saying whites are the primary offenders puts whites at a disadvantage. You see, I lost a job due to racism and sexism, but since I can pass as white (I'm technically Hispanic with white features. Some would say 'mixed' to which, if legal, I would respond with a hard punch to the xiphoid process) and ostensibly as male, no one cared. I was 100 times more qualified for the job (I trained the people who didn't hire me), but I was denied benefits and pay because a quota had to be fulfilled. I cannot in any way see how any reasonable human being can think this is a just way of dealing with racism.

So, the end results are not black and white, but the issue of racism's role in life is. It is wrong. It is never to be accepted and I never will, be it against whites, blacks, asians, male or female.

# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - Nathan of Brainfertilizer

Rolled Out On: 4/25/2005 2:11 PM

Haacked,
I think you are also missing that discrimination/prejudice is an inherently personal experience.

If I'm getting beat up by a bunch of minorities just because I'm white, it really doesn't help for me to remind myself that there are more white CEOs. Just like it doesn't help the black couple who are not allowed to rent a home just because they are black to remind themselves how far their race has come over the last 50 years.

On the other hand, if you tell someone every day of his life that he's going to be discriminated against, that person may feel more persecuted and may look for it in mundane occurrences like getting cut off on the highway.

I think racial discrimination is actually reducing significantly every year. Part of the problem, though, is the lack of concern toward discrimination of all types, just like SaaM is pointing out; as well as the revenge/fued factor continuing to fuel racial interactions.

If you have someone hyper-aware of their own racial difference, they will never be able to stop being hyper-aware of others' racial difference. One of the biggest under-reported problems in the US is the hatred and discrimination between blacks and hispanics, because the media can't find a white person to blame for it.

# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - sammler

Rolled Out On: 4/26/2005 11:07 AM

Alex Whitlock and I had a substantial back-and-forth earlier this year about the feedback between affirmative action and racism. It overlaps somewhat with your points.

I ended up focusing on a sort of mirror image of Nathan's point above; to wit, that affirmative action doesn't help the poor, but instead uses them to help the minority elite.

# RE: The Joys of Stereotyping the Majority - Slarrow

Rolled Out On: 4/22/2005 2:52 PM

Not a psychologist, naturally (just a computer geek), but I did run across this little piece on what the guy called "anti-process". I'm not sure if this is the same as "cognitive dissonance", but I bet it's pretty close. (Oh, and this same guy also had a nice bit of definition and advice about trolls, too.)

At the heart of it, though, I'd suspect the people you discuss this with are using reasoning to support things they believe for nonrational reasons. The scenarios you bring up do not fall in line with their nonrational reasons for pressing the argument, hence their treatment. I actually think this is everyone's default mode that we have to consciously break out of (with all its implications for man as a thinking being), so it's not surprising to see it widespread.

(Come to think of it, I may have casually restated the position from the anti-process link. I haven't looked at it in a while so I'm not sure, but the theory may have seeped into my thinking more than I realized.)

Oh, and good stuff on Protein Wisdom's threads on the pharmacist and morality.

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