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Recently, I feel I've been attacked by friends. Granted I've yet to meet any authors of the blogs I read, I consider them 'virtual' friends as we all seem to have common threads.

Lately, there have been a lot of posts regarding religion, most of them notable for their disdain for it. Heck, one post the other day even called me ignorant because I didn't believe what she believed. And it's depressing.

Now, I don't want to get into a pissing match regarding evolution versus creation as that's not an argument that can be effectively discussed on a blog, but rather I'd like to bring up faith and how most people seem to confuse faith with fact.

For purposes of full disclosure, let me say that I am a big lover of science. I bake bread not because I like to eat it (which I don't really), but because I love the whole concept of mixing together a bunch of chemicals and seeing what happens. I read up on the Cassini and Mars Rover's projects every day. I have a lot of faith in science just like I have a lot of faith in religion. And this is what I want to discuss.

It is a matter of faith that we landed on the moon. It is a matter of faith that Napoleon existed. It is a matter of faith that the core of the earth is molten nickel. These are things that, unless you are Neal Armstrong (Hi Neal!!!), you have not personally experienced or observed and therefore must take someone else's word and observations as fact. This is faith.

When I studied electronics, we had to understand electrons, covalent shells, attraction, etc. Never once did any of my instructors actually allow me to look at an atom (then again, bouncing photons off of individual protons, neutrons, and electrons is a little difficult) nor did we go through all the complex mathematical equations needed to indicate exactly what an atom was. Instead, we observed certain events and postulated that these things exist and caused them. I took it on faith that they actually exist.

Nobody has been alive long enough to know how the Earth came to be. We can observe other phenomenon on different scales and assume that these things may have taken place many, many years ago. But it is a deep faith that these things actually happened. We simply cannot know for sure and must fill in the blank spots with leaps of faith. I feel science makes these leaps smaller and smaller, but they are leaps nonetheless.

I am a firm believer that macro evolution is a bunch of hooey. I've read many articles and papers on the subject and every single one of them require me have faith that, while they were unable to prove a particular point such as evolution, that I simply go ahead and believe it to be true. Sorry.

I can (and have) observe cellular mutations. I've seen with my own eyes many cells who, upon replication, somehow got the genetic code wrong and were different than the parent. Most of the time, these changes were fatal. The majority of the rest were superficial. I once put an onion under a radiation lamp overnight. Damn thing grew three times the size, but was lumpy, mostly brown, and totally inedible. But that's a story for another day.

Cells change. I've seen it and can accept it. However to say that entire systems can mutate at the same time is asinine. Not only does the DNA have to mutate to carry perfect instructions on building this new system, but it also has to be perfect enough to self replicate. There are two instances that I like to point out.

First, let's talk about eyes. I can accept that some glob of cells existed and that, due to mutation, one of the cells in the glob had random instructions that caused it to turn into a cell that, when hit with photons caused sodium to flow across the membrane and changing its electrical charge. Granted the entire sequence is a hell of a lot more complicated than that, but for now it will suffice.

So this glob of cells now has a cell that no longer performs the function it used to. The cell requires nutrients, and if it is not actively adding to the glob's survival, it is now putting the life of the glob into jeopardy. Let's grant the premise that the cell doesn't take too much away from the glob and that the glob can continue to hobble along.

Ok, now we have a glob (maybe 100 cells or so) that has one cell that has ceased to function but isn't fatal. This cell causes an electrical charge when hit with photons. Amazingly, at the same time it can somehow pump out the excess sodium across the membrane, but hell, this is a random occurrence so we'll just chalk it up to that.

This might sound like a great idea, but how the hell does a single, light sensitive cell do anything? To make sense of the light, something else in the glob would have to mutate to make use of the electrical charge (nerve). That in turn would have to be interpreted in some fashion. Let's assume that light is bad for the cell so in order to survive, it would have to mutate some flagellum and swim away from the light source. Man, that's a lot of random mutations to have to happen! But I'm even open to the thought of that happening. It's not impossible, just improbable.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that small changes are bound to happen. Trillions of cells duplicating themselves are bound to produce a mutation that is useful. But entire systems just don't happen.

The other illustration is that of a giraffe. It is folly to believe that some short-necked animal gave birth to a mutation that had a super long neck. See, the length of the neck isn't the only obstacle. You have to develop extra neck bones at the same time to support the new length. There has to be an entire new set of muscles, nerves, etc to support the neck as well. Also, a giraffe has a sponge-like membrane around the brain to prevent passing out when it changes height to drink water. That happened at the exact same time too? Doubtful.

So the other answer would be a gradual change, over millions and millions of years. Ok, fine. A giraffe's neck allows it to eat leaves in trees that it wouldn't otherwise be able to reach. If the change was gradual, at some point the neck would have been too long to successfully eat grass, but too short to reach the leaves. And yet it survived over millions of years with that type of handicap? I don't get it. And why aren't there millions of fossils that show medium necked giraffes?

It bothers me that someone would call me ignorant although I've studied the same information and simply came to a different conclusion. Unless you've observed evolution at every stage of every possible life form on Earth, you're indulging in the same faith that you accuse others of being ignorant for.

rolled out on Wednesday, November 24, 2004 9:39 AM
Comments
# RE: A Word on Faith - Nathan

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 11:02 AM

Dude, I am so right there with you. I saw the comments you left on Dean's, and saw that the way the conversation was going that your words would be disregarded at best and distorted at worst. Sure enough!

We do accept so much on faith. I've made this argument myself before, although my archives on my old blog were deleted so I can't show it to you.

Part of the problem is that people can't wrap their minds around the word 'faith' and understand what you really mean; they simply can't separate 'faith' from 'religion'. It's one of the reasons I try to use 'belief system' as much as possible.

Moreover, part of the problem is elitism: people will appeal to an authority they feel is unimpeachable and look down on what they assume is the authority you are appealing to, i.e., "Scientists believe in evolution, fundamentalists believe in some big, invisible guy in the sky, so obviously my belief system has more credibility." It really gets in the way of good conversation.

The thing is, fundamentalists have no monopoly on close-mindedness. People decide who they will trust, and what information they will accept as valid, and then they stop thinking. That's the only way macro-evolution has survived as a theory.

There are masses of people who think that science is what they were taught in high school, and that Newtonian Physics is the sum of all they need understand. They think Quantum Physics and Fuzzy Logic are just for theoretical exercises for egghead scientists, failing to realize that the very God they deny, if He exists, is described quite well by quantum theory: when you get into the very large, the very small, or the very energetic, Newtonian Physics don't apply, and not only do time and space have little meaning, they cannot even be adequately quantified by the phenomena experienced by those dwelling in the realm of Newtonian Physics.

But you know all that, so I guess I'm just showing off how little I know...

# RE: A Word on Faith - Sissy Willis

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 11:22 AM

Check out Darwin's finches. Evolution can work on a pretty short schedule. It all has to do with environmental imperatives.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Sissy Willis

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 11:23 AM

I feel awful thinking you may be referring to my dissing of your faith. Please know that is not the case at all.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Nathan

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 11:30 AM

Sure, the finches changed.
One might say: "adapted". As in, micro-evolution. An even better example would be how viruses and bacteria adapt to be able to continue to infect people.

But what SaaM and I (and many others) object to is macro-evolution, or something becoming something else.

Bacteria with very short generations have been stimulated to mutate very quickly. They can go through thousands of generations in a short and observable period of time. None have ever shown any signs of becoming something else to fill an environmental niche, which is what Darwin described.

I find it very, very interesting that Darwin is cited so often as an authority supporting evolution, even though he himself said that unless massive amounts of supporting fossil records were found, his theory was false. And no such massive amounts of supporting fossil records were found.

The process of looking at fossils was a very young science in those days, and they were finding alot in a short period of time. He expected that the complete tree would be found within 30 years. No such link has been found.

In the same manner Pointillism is a method of art in which dots are used, and when you step back you see a whole picture implied from the dots. Darwin found, say, 3 dots, and inferred there were probably 3 million that formed a detailed, obvious picture. He predicted that if his theory were true, we'd be seeing thousands of new dots all the time and the picture would become clearer. We've found maybe 2 more dots.

And evolutionists have made a whole religion out of it. There is more verifiable evidence for the existence of Jesus as a person than there is for macro-evolution.

# Hitting "The Wall" - Brain Fertilizer

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 11:40 AM

Sharp as a Marble encounters one I've run into before, and commences beating his head against it. You go, Mr. "Man from La Mancha"!...

# RE: A Word on Faith - BoDiddly

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 12:03 PM

Thanks for stating so eloquently what I've contended for a long time, in a perhaps overly simplified way: The jump necessary from the observable to the proposed in evolution is far broader than the jump from the observable to the proposed in religion.

What I would like to hear explained by a member of the scientific community is why a presupposition against the existence of a divine being is more valid than a presupposition towards that being's existance. In my estimation, pure science must, by definition, have an absence of presuppositions and prejudices, and rely strictly upon the measurable and observable. Also, scientific principle demands that a hypothesis be tested antagonistically--in other words, not just searching for evidence to support the hypothesis, but also being sensitive to any evidence that would disprove it. Evolution is conspicuously exempted from this rule, or the very facts that you bring to light regarding the impossibilities of system evolution coupled with what is known regarding the inherent declination towards chaos from order (and not vice-versa), would have long ago silenced the theory.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 12:53 PM

Sissy, no offence taken although I will freely admit it was the proverbial straw on the camel's back. It does bother me that the same mindset that permeates the Democrats (ie. I'm right, you're wrong, therefor your're ignorant) divides us on the sciences as well.

What bothers me the most is that we all have faith. I believe in more things that are impossible to prove than I do in things I have irrefutable proof. I believe my wife and child love me. I belive there is an Australia. And I firmly believe in free will and that my conciousness causes my brain to react the way it does and not vice versa. I do not willfully disregard science ratherI am much more skeptical of it because of my love for it!

Please understand that I LOVE having discussion and I don't think you were insulting me. It was a culmination of many, many posts and comments since the election and the whole "morals & values" that lead me to this. I want people to realize their faith and also understand that with faith comes quite a bit of possibility that you might be wrong. I think that once people honestly look at themselves and their ideas as fallible and that others argue with them for the exact same reason, peace would be a bit easier to achieve.

Group hug!

# RE: A Word on Faith - George

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 2:15 PM

Nice Post. Thank You.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Maxim

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 7:24 PM


Lately, there have been a lot of posts regarding religion, most of them notable for their disdain for it. Heck, one post the other day even called me ignorant because I didn't believe what she believed. And it's depressing.

--------------------------------------

1. Remind your detractor(s) that it's very bad manners to disparage someone else's religion or lack thereof. Discussions about religion can be interesting. Personal attacks based on it are a sign of ineptness or worse. (And no, it's not bad manners to say that.)

2. It is just as hard -- or meaningless -- to "prove" the non-existence of God as it is to "prove" the existence of God. The logic is not any easier for atheists than it is for believers. For me, when anyone starts to "prove" either position, I start to lose interest.

3. Thanks for your blog and the effort you put into it. Best wishes to you and your (growing) family.

Interesting thing about manners. They are social conventions that allow us to agree on how to handle potentially difficult situations easily and without insulting each other. One of the biggest phony "improvements" of the last few decades is our liberation from manners.

# RE: A Word on Faith - ctob

Rolled Out On: 11/24/2004 11:45 PM

I'm not really certain why the issue of evolution has anything to do with faith in a Christian God. Evolution and selection could still exist even if a literal interpretation of the 6 days of creation etc. were actually the case. I mean God's supposedly omnipotent, right? He could have setup all of the mechanisms we currently have evidence for and hit fast forward and as far as we could tell it took 5 billion years to get to this point of life. I mean I don't personally believe this but if we are taking about a being that is omnipotent and can cause any sort of miracle to occur it seems a little silly to say this or that fact disproves things said about Him.

With that being said Mr. Marble has enumerated a few of the more cogent problems with macro-evolution. However these by no means disprove macro evolutions. They are however real problems that should be confronted better. Some of the details of macro evolution are frankly not well understood. Mr. Marble has admitted the following on the micro level:
1) evolution ( genetic change ) occurs
2) selection occurs ie. deleterious mutations cause death and don't get passed on, and changes that cause an advantage tend to cause those genes to be passed on more often.

If anyone has a problem with these two things on the micro level I have two words for you: Anti-microbial Resistance.

Mr. Marble has trouble accepting Macro evolution because although he sees some evidence of 1 he doesn't see how it can lead to 2 in a meaningful way.

Most Biologists currently operate under the theory that macro evolution is a valid phenomenon. They base this in large part on the fossil record but also on more current information. There is Darwin's finchs. There are also what are called clines where various members of a particular species seem to exibit a minor amount of selection towards some trait in different environments, for example the same species of snake may tend to be yellow-green in the rain forest canopy, but brown on the forest floor. There is other evidence that I don't want to get into right now. The main thing with these larger systems is they are often much slower and of course much more complex understanding and proving how evolution/selection works in them is very hard and takes a long time.

Currently the case of macro evolution is pretty much based on a preponderance of circumstanital evidence. But that is all it is, a circumstanial case. Now if you told me evolution and selection were a myth I would believe think you were ignoring facts considering the overwhelming evidence on the mico-level. I am persuaded by what is currently a fairly decent circumstantial case, but for people to accuse someone of being a silly religous nut because they are skeptical of a circumstantial case seems, well, assbackwards.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/25/2004 9:16 AM

ctob, it's not about God versus men in white smocks, it's about faith. Like I commented recently over at Dean's World, most poeple believe asteroids burn up in the atmosphere due to friction. This is untrue, but since most people do not have the facilites to test the theory, they simply believe it regardless of it's truthfulness.

Faith causes people to become blind. I realize my faith in God is not perfect, and I am willing to accept that fact. I also realize my faith in science is not perfect either, so I have to understand that just because I believe in something doesn't mean I'm 100% right, especially since I'm relying on other people to tell me the 'facts'.

But there are many people out there who have this notion that science is infallible. It's not. People not only make mistakes, they make them intentionally because they have to accept some level of the unknown. Empirical data can only get you so far. After that, you just have to make up facts that support your observations.

And it all requires faith!

# RE: A Word on Faith - susie

Rolled Out On: 11/26/2004 3:09 AM

*****But there are many people out there who have this notion that science is infallible.*****

Just as there are many people out there who have the notion that faith is infallible. Why don't we sensible people deal with those thoroughly unsensible people first, and then get on with our lives, agreeing to disagree where necessary, and communing where consensus is possible?

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/26/2004 8:33 AM

Well susie, we can't because what you consider sensible, someone else might consider assinine. When you say there are more people who consider faith infallible, I'm assuming that you mean religious people who believe in God. When I say faith, I mean anyone who believes in anything they themselves have not seen or experienced first hand. Sensible people do not do such things.

So in essence, there are no sensible people.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Chet

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 7:27 PM

I'm sorry, but it's not a matter of faith that we landed on the moon. If you don't believe we did, you can shine a laser at the moon and get a reflection from the box reflector rangefinder target that one of the Apollo missions left.

There's simply no place for faith in science, and there's certainly no need for it. Evolution - yes, micro and macro - are substantiated by the weght of evidence, not by faith.

But what SaaM and I (and many others) object to is macro-evolution, or something becoming something else.

This is simply not an objection that makes sense. Species don't have some kind of innate nature that has to change for evolution to proceed. Populations are populations, and they evolve and change over time. There is no limit to how great that change can be.

I'm sorry that people call you "ignorant". But when you guys say things like "And why aren't there millions of fossils that show medium necked giraffes?", when there are in fact such transitional fossils, ignorance is the only conclusion. That's a question of ignorance. There are giraffe transitional fossils, and they do have short necks.

Take a look at www.talkorigins.org. They have a search function that will resolve many of your questions, and the articles are written by people with real training in the sciences.

You don't have to take evolution on faith. It's supported by the evidence. But if you can't be bothered to look up the evidence, then "ignorant" is the only word that can be used to describe your position.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 8:24 PM

So Chet, tell me, when did you shine the laser? Also, how many fossils have you personally unearthed? Did you do the research to ensure the ground layers hadn't been disturbed or shifted in any way that might upset their depth? And I'm quite positive you personally oversaw the carbon 14 dating of pottery peices found at various sites around the world and can attest to their authenticity.

Or did you just read a web site, accept that they are an authority, and take it on faith like the rest of us?

There's not only room for faith in science, but it requires quite a bit of it. All science can help us do is lessen the leaps we have to take.

And by the way, none of us here are claiming the moon landing didn't happen. I believe it did and I believe it by faith. I have to. I don't have the laser power to hit a box I have no idea where it is. So, yes, like every other person on the Earth, I am ignorant.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 8:25 PM

Oh, Chet, also - Richard Behe has more training in the sciences than probably every person who ever visted my site combined. Why don't you believe him? He's an authority too.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 8:29 PM

From talk origins regarding giraffes

Too late to be actual ancestors; probably "cousins"


Real definitive there...

# RE: A Word on Faith - Chet

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 9:07 PM

> So Chet, tell me, when did you shine the laser?

If I wanted to and had a laser, I could. If I wanted to travel and dig fossils myself, I could. And you could, too. The only thing standing in our way is a lack of training and funding, both of which we could solve if we really wanted to.

Can I summon the Virgin Mary to manifest before me and submit to interrogation? Can I compel Christ to appear in a vision and do parlor tricks under my study? Of course not, under any circumstances. Faith and religion are revalatory in nature; the "evidence" comes as it wills, not at our demand. That's why you have to take them on faith.

But science is participatory. There's absolutely nothing preventing you from investigating these evidences if you wished to put in the time and effort. So don't insult me by confusing my positition with yours - faith is not required for science.

> Why don't you believe him?

Well, when he makes claims that he supports with valid reasoning from verifiable evidence, I do. I'm sure he's not completely wrong. But when he leaves the arena of evidentiary debate, his thoughts are meaningless, and certainly no counter to a well-supported model like evolution. His "authority" only stems from the evidence, not his credentials, and when he exceeds that authority, he embarasses himself and anyone who lacks the training and knowledge to see through his hollow argumentation.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 9:13 PM

No, you cannot shine a laser and find out. I doubt you'll ever have access to something that precise and powerful that can make a round trip through the atmosphere and back. So, like me, you take it on faith. Just because something is possible doesn't make it probable.

I can't cause a black hole. I can't just collapse a star and watch it happen. Does that mean they don't exist?

You're making the main mistake of confusing faith with religion. You have faith, you're just too ignorant of the fact to accept that there are things you'll never know and that you just have to trust someone else to tell you. And when you do, you fall into the same category as the rest of us.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Chet

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 9:21 PM

> You're making the main mistake of confusing faith with religion.

No, you make the main mistake of conflating "faith" and "trust." Consider that you don't actually experience the world in any way; your brain merely interprets nerve signals from your sense organs. How do you have any way of knowing if those signals represent any sort of reality? They could easily be synthetic signals, as if you were in the Matrix or something.

It's possible to trust - to trust your senses, to trust the scientific process to generate the best possible results from the avaliable data - without having faith. Trust is belief that something that has never let you down won't let you down in the future. Faith is belief that something that has never done anything but let you down won't let you down in the future.

I don't just have faith in scientists to tell me what I need to know, in the way that you have faith in the Bible or God. I examine their methodology and conclusions, and see if their reasoning appears sound. Is God is a position to be examined by me? Can I assess God's methodology?

Science has built-in proceedures to eliminate error and validate methodology. If you don't like God's conclusions on a certain subject, what recourse do you have?

Don't accuse me of ignorance, especially not after the gulf of biological ignorance you display in every post.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 9:32 PM

ZZZZZ.. oh I'm sorry, were you calling me ignorant again? You still not proven that whole laser thingy?

I've read through talkorigins.org. I've read Origin of the Species. I've discussed evolution with many people smarter than you and it is the whirlwind of "probablys" "maybes" and "truet mes" that threw me away from it. It's not 100% proven and the leaps of faith / trust required are larger than people like you want to admit.

People like yourself trust blindly. You do not question every single thing that comes across your senses because you can't. You don't have time to so you have to put your faith / trust in others.

I'm sorry that you and I have examined something more complex than either one of our brains can handle (as well as having massive, massive, massive amounts of missing data that has to be interpolated which gives room for error) and come to different conclusions. But apparently you are infallible and I should just concede defeat.

Let me know how that laser randefinding works.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Chet

Rolled Out On: 11/29/2004 10:58 PM

> It's not 100% proven and the leaps of faith / trust required are larger than people like you want to admit.

Ah, but neither is the germ theory of disease, but I presume you wash your hands when you leave the bathroom?

Of course, nothing in science is 100% proven, because that's the nature of science. We can only tentatively accept our conclusions because new data that disprove them can always come to light. And the simple fact is, evolution is one of the best-supported models in science.

> I've read Origin of the Species.

Who gives a fuck? I haven't, and neither have most biologists. You know why? Because the evolutionary model is supported by evidence, not by writings in a musty 150-year-old book.

Read the evidence, not the history. We're light-years beyond Darwin at this point. Browse pubmed.org for real, refereed journal articles on the subject. Aquaint yourself with the science, not with the science fiction promulgated by Behe and Demski and his ilk, who are no more than one step above Hovind and Baugh on the ladder of charlitans.

> People like yourself trust blindly.

There's nothing blind about my trust in science. Not everybody's like you, you know. Just because you can't figure out how to validate the conclusions and results of science for your own self doesn't mean the rest of us can't.

> But apparently you are infallible and I should just concede defeat.

Concede nothing. But for god's sake, aquaint yourself with the evidence. There's documentation of single-celled living things evolving rudimentary multicellularity. Your Platonistic, Essentialist obsession with "macroevolution" notwithstanding, isn't that a population of living things becoming a different living thing?

Of course it is. As is everything else you dismiss as "microevolution." Of course, the joke's on you - there's no difference between micro and macroevolution; there's only evolution to different degrees.

> Let me know how that laser randefinding works.

Well, it's really simple. You shine an occilating laser at the rangefinding target on the moon; the target (being a box reflector) reflects the laser back in exactly the direction it came. You allow the incoming laser to interfere with the outgoing beam, and the resulting wave pattern gives you the distance to the moon, from some very simple equations.

Ah, but of course, in your little fantasy world, everybody who says they've done this is making it up, because there's a vast scientific conspiracy to promote atheism in our schools, or something. I can never keep the kooks straight...

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/30/2004 6:39 AM

Ahh, and now I'm a kook! When all else fails, eh? Lovely chat, really.

Am I also a kook because I do believe in the moon landing but, since I love my family and have a job that requires me to learn constantly and don't have time to research such laser pointers and germ theory, I don't have time to validate the evidence like you?

Am I a moron because, as an electrician working on fighterjets, I believed in electrons although I never had the time to mathematically prove them? (Granted, I had 440V one time prove that my fillings could get hot).

Not everything is provable, you said it yourself. So you use your judgement to determine the best approach to explain why you think things are the way they are. Some people call it trust, some call it faith. That's my point.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Robb Allen

Rolled Out On: 11/30/2004 8:51 AM

And Chet, let me also appoligize for being snitty. That's not the way to have a conversation. And I want you to also understand that I wholeheartedly agree with most science. I personally am a programmer / software architect and I deal in learning new concepts every day. Concepts which I have to look at other peoples research and accept that their conclusions make sense with the ones I have.

Science is a wonderful thing. I love learning about how stuff works at the smallest level known. I just feel that, while science is a great tool, it can't explain every single thing in the universe, and even if it could, our minds just cannot hold all the information. So many of the the things we take for granted are based on trust in the system, a system which does have its flaws.

And I am completely against teaching creationism in school. 100% against it. Like you said before, it cannot be validated and therefor has no place in science classes. But I also feel that evolution (which I used to believe in until I studied it more) isn't something to be taught in school either. That information isn't relevent to modern life, and those who wish to learn about it should do so on their own accord. Using your germ theory, that's not taught either and germs have a higher impact on our daily lives than how we came to be.

I appreciate your discussion with me on this, and neither of us should resort to snarky comments nor namecalling. It doesn't help.

However, should you really get a chance to play with one of those lasers, please let me know. That would be SO friggin' cool. Can you also explain why we have telescopes that can see surface features of Mars from Earth, but can't take a decent photograph of the lunar lander? That one confuses me.

# RE: A Word on Faith - Chet

Rolled Out On: 11/30/2004 10:31 AM

> Some people call it trust, some call it faith. That's my point.

Your point is that you can redefine words as you see fit? Congratulations, I guess, you've proved it overwhelmingly.

> But I also feel that evolution (which I used to believe in until I studied it more) isn't something to be taught in school either. That information isn't relevent to modern life, and those who wish to learn about it should do so on their own accord.

That's simply ludicrous. As a computer programmer, you should know better - the hottest advances in programming are stemming from genetic computing, which harnesses the power of random mutation and natural selection to design software without human input, better than humans could do.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution. Without evolution biology is just stamp-collecting. It's very much relevant to daily life, and belongs in a proper science curriculum. Germ theory does as well, and I was taught that in school, which is why I found it weird for you to say that it isn't taught in science curriculums.

> Can you also explain why we have telescopes that can see surface features of Mars from Earth, but can't take a decent photograph of the lunar lander?

The atmosphere (of the Earth) hazes that kind of minute detail. Surface features are generally quite a bit larger than what's left of the lander.

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