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On a Facebook thread, there’s a discussion regarding “No Loaded Weapons” signs on the doors of one of the largest gun shops here in Florida. Underneath is fine print that says “We respect the rights of CCW holders. Please keep it concealed” which covers all their bases. Granted, that fine print didn’t always used to be there and I think that’s where the griping comes in.
I understand that there is a big concern in a gun store with people continually handling guns and that the goal is to do the best to prevent people from handling live firearms while in the showroom. Not everyone shares the same passion for following the four rules as we do. A gun store is much different than most other places in that people are actively handling their heaters – anyplace else and the gat stays in its holster so the risk of an ND is so slights as to be statistical noise not worth worrying over. So the concept of asking people to ensure their firearms are unloaded doesn’t bother me in the slightest, especially when it’s made clear that guns that stay in their holsters and out of site are perfectly ok.
I don’t know if it was corporate policy or just uneducated employees (I’ve found that larger gun store employees rank right up in knowledge about firearms as Best Buy employees do on computers) but this particular chain had told many a customer that they weren’t trusted to be in the store with a loaded gun. I’ve seen it before as well, where store employees get an ‘only ones’ attitude that they feel the fact that they get a paycheck from a place that sells boomsticks somehow qualifies them to carry a gun more than the people who are their to shop.
Anyway, people got the impression that this store chain was pretty rude to gun owners and it got around so much that many of the stores (including the one in Tampa that I used to visit) changed their signs to indicate that CCW was perfectly fine as it should be. However, it’s difficult to know if these people mean it or are just wanting your money.
For now, I have many other options for gun ranges and stores that don’t have a record of insulting their clientele, not to mention that this place’s prices are way above any other store in the area (overhead, baby… overhead). Regardless, I don’t patronize establishments that demand I disarm before entering, even if it’s a place that wants to sell me arms. It’ll be a while before I head back there if at all.
Thoughts?
Comments
Michael Hawkins
says:
on 11/28/2012 at 10:08 AM
"No handling of loaded weapons" would be better IMHO
Actually, I'm thinking that they've had one too many cases of someone bringing in a Firearm to sell that is loaded. Think of some Grandkid cleaning out Gramps home after he passed away. Said Grandchild doesn't know Jack Squat about Firearms, he just brings in his old LOADED Smith Model 10, shoves it at the Clerk and say "I want to sell this". Also, don't forget all the Fudds and Cletii out there who say, "Of course it's not loaded! I checked it out last Christmas!"
Up here in Ohio, all the Gun Shows have the same Policy. I asked one of the Promoters why it was so, and he said it was because of the Insurance. Turns out, if some Idjit brings in a Loaded Gun, and he pulls the Trigger while in the crowd, the Promoter is the one who gets sued, because of his "Creating an Unsafe Environment."
So I'm guessing that they rethought their policy involving CCW, because they are assuming that if one has a CHP, one isn't going to do something stupid.
Personally, I feel most comfortable in a Gun Store where all the Staff are OC'ing. But that seems to be going away also.
Finally, FWIW, the Gander Mountain store up by me says if one brings in a Firearm, not only must it be Unloaded, someone from the Gun Dept. has to come to the Door and take it from you to the Gun Dept. And that applies to BOWS also. Weird, but true.
Up here in Ohio, all the Gun Shows have the same Policy. I asked one of the Promoters why it was so, and he said it was because of the Insurance. Turns out, if some Idjit brings in a Loaded Gun, and he pulls the Trigger while in the crowd, the Promoter is the one who gets sued, because of his "Creating an Unsafe Environment."
So I'm guessing that they rethought their policy involving CCW, because they are assuming that if one has a CHP, one isn't going to do something stupid.
Personally, I feel most comfortable in a Gun Store where all the Staff are OC'ing. But that seems to be going away also.
Finally, FWIW, the Gander Mountain store up by me says if one brings in a Firearm, not only must it be Unloaded, someone from the Gun Dept. has to come to the Door and take it from you to the Gun Dept. And that applies to BOWS also. Weird, but true.
Boyd
says:
"No handling of loaded weapons" is "unpossible". The two sets of safety rules, nra and the Cooper four have some level of assumption that a gun is loaded.
Sit in a store for a half hour after work and -watch- the customers and counter people. Both -routinely- sweep one another. OK in a crowded store that's going to hard to prevent 100% but there's also an attitude IMHO on both sides of the counter that "what I do is safe, cause I'm so expert". If -you- were an insurance company would you stay in that environment? If you were the business owner would you run a shop without insurance? I'm a (volunteer) officer of a gun show promoter that requires gun ties. We have extremely vocal internet enabled critics who have been very publicly clear they'll never darken our doorway because of our draconian repression of their civil right. I personally was an Election Volunteer Coordinator for 10 years, I'm friends with the first pro gun Gov candidate in Washington in a decade or more and worked very hard on his campaign. I'm part of the leadership of my states only rkba specific PAC (again as a volunteer). It's hard to hear forum posters say I'm anti gun because I help run a gun show that requires gun ties. They should walk a mile in my moccasins. Or even just put the laptop down and pry themselves off mom's basement couch. All IMO
Sit in a store for a half hour after work and -watch- the customers and counter people. Both -routinely- sweep one another. OK in a crowded store that's going to hard to prevent 100% but there's also an attitude IMHO on both sides of the counter that "what I do is safe, cause I'm so expert". If -you- were an insurance company would you stay in that environment? If you were the business owner would you run a shop without insurance? I'm a (volunteer) officer of a gun show promoter that requires gun ties. We have extremely vocal internet enabled critics who have been very publicly clear they'll never darken our doorway because of our draconian repression of their civil right. I personally was an Election Volunteer Coordinator for 10 years, I'm friends with the first pro gun Gov candidate in Washington in a decade or more and worked very hard on his campaign. I'm part of the leadership of my states only rkba specific PAC (again as a volunteer). It's hard to hear forum posters say I'm anti gun because I help run a gun show that requires gun ties. They should walk a mile in my moccasins. Or even just put the laptop down and pry themselves off mom's basement couch. All IMO
Les -- Goose Hill in Fredericksburg has a similar sign, but at the bottom of the sign (in smaller, but not tiny print) it states that this doesn't apply to holstered guns being lawfully carried -- only guns that are going to be handled for sales or repairs.
I have ZERO problems with a policy of "All guns must be unloaded and cased, except those lawfully carried and remain holstered", and in areas that don't allow OC, adding, "and remain lawfully concealed" at the end.
And given the high number of fumble fingered Cletii at Funshows, along with the much lower gun pimp to visitor ratios, I don't have a problem with asking me to unload and show clear at the door, if you have a SAFE place for me to unload (and then reload on my way out the door). "Safe" as in, "When the inevitable 'OOPS!' occurs, the bullet is controlled into a safe landing."
I have ZERO problems with a policy of "All guns must be unloaded and cased, except those lawfully carried and remain holstered", and in areas that don't allow OC, adding, "and remain lawfully concealed" at the end.
And given the high number of fumble fingered Cletii at Funshows, along with the much lower gun pimp to visitor ratios, I don't have a problem with asking me to unload and show clear at the door, if you have a SAFE place for me to unload (and then reload on my way out the door). "Safe" as in, "When the inevitable 'OOPS!' occurs, the bullet is controlled into a safe landing."
At the local monthly gun show, all incoming handguns are cable-tied at the entrance through their chambers or cylinders to insure they are not loaded. The person manning the table is usually a competent looking sheriff's deputy in uniform but working off duty. Rifles are checked for empty mags and if possible cable-tied as well.
Works pretty well, as at a glance you can tell the the gun being handled is cable-tied and unloaded, even if you are 10 feet away and wondering why you keep getting swept by the gun muzzle.
Works pretty well, as at a glance you can tell the the gun being handled is cable-tied and unloaded, even if you are 10 feet away and wondering why you keep getting swept by the gun muzzle.
Got no issue with it. I've been swept so many times at gun stores and gun shows that I wouldn't mind cable tying the customers and their guns.
I usually let the shop know I'm carrying and tell them I have no intent to bring it out of holster. The one exception to that was when I wanted to get a new holster. I brought the gun to the shop open and cased. Showed them it was clear and then proceeded to try on the holsters. They said they were happy someone thought of them for a change. Some people actually want to try holsters with a gun in full condition.
On my way out with my new holster, they reminded me to load up my pistol. When I told them I left the rounds elsewhere, they gave me some for my empty mag. This in the Sarasota area.
Be nice and get nice.
I usually let the shop know I'm carrying and tell them I have no intent to bring it out of holster. The one exception to that was when I wanted to get a new holster. I brought the gun to the shop open and cased. Showed them it was clear and then proceeded to try on the holsters. They said they were happy someone thought of them for a change. Some people actually want to try holsters with a gun in full condition.
On my way out with my new holster, they reminded me to load up my pistol. When I told them I left the rounds elsewhere, they gave me some for my empty mag. This in the Sarasota area.
Be nice and get nice.
I'd have no problem with the policy. A gun in the holster isn't going to harm anyone it's not supposed to. A gun in the hand? Not so easy to be sure.
_My_ gun isn't going to hurt anyone it isn't supposed to, because I'm not going to pull the trigger on it. But in a store full of guns, that might have a bunch of them on the counter at a time, one or more of which might legitimately be confused for mine, if mine leaves the holster? Not to mention the customers who are outright incompetent at safety...it's a reasonable policy.
Some people will be offended by anything, because they're hunting for reasons to be offended. But if the store policy makes an exception for lawful carry, then it's clear that they're _not talking about_ your carry gun. They're talking about the gun you're at the store to buy, or sell, or get fixed, or just show off to your buddies behind the counter. And none of those guns should be loaded anyway.
_My_ gun isn't going to hurt anyone it isn't supposed to, because I'm not going to pull the trigger on it. But in a store full of guns, that might have a bunch of them on the counter at a time, one or more of which might legitimately be confused for mine, if mine leaves the holster? Not to mention the customers who are outright incompetent at safety...it's a reasonable policy.
Some people will be offended by anything, because they're hunting for reasons to be offended. But if the store policy makes an exception for lawful carry, then it's clear that they're _not talking about_ your carry gun. They're talking about the gun you're at the store to buy, or sell, or get fixed, or just show off to your buddies behind the counter. And none of those guns should be loaded anyway.
My first idea was the same as Micheal's, but if that wording contradicts some of Coopers four rules, how about a sign that says "All personal firearms stay in your holster".
I also wish that more gun shops would provide a safety stop target area to point the firearm towards when the customer is discovering a firearms ergonomics; or lack of them.
I also wish that more gun shops would provide a safety stop target area to point the firearm towards when the customer is discovering a firearms ergonomics; or lack of them.
If it is the big gun store chain that I think you are talking about, there are a couple up here in the Orlando area also. I don't go to them because I got tired of how out-and-out RUDE and unhelpful the employees were. They were quite often just standing around chatting with each other, and when I wanted something from behind the counter (to BUY, not to just look at) it was like I was imposing. The final last time, the employee was just shy of being openly hostile.
It wouldn't surprise me if that attitude extended all the way up to the management.
s
It wouldn't surprise me if that attitude extended all the way up to the management.
s
I make it a point to not patronize an establishment if they don't trust me with being able to defend myself; it makes no difference whether they sell guns, poodles or pancakes. After I moved I changed banks because the regional bank I used in [former state] that apparently had no problem with me being armed did have a problem in [new state]. Or, at least that's what the signs on the front door of every branch I visited indicated. The signs, BTW, were not statutorily compliant so they could legally be ignored, but there was no mistaking the sentiment behind them. Goodbye bigots, hello new bank (which reminds me, I need to print up some more "here's why I'm taking my business - and my money - elsewhere" cards).
I'm familiar with the gun store chain mentioned in the discussion, and I'll agree with the popular assessment of said chain. My experience is that those employees are not so manifestly less sensitive to customers than others in the same business as to greatly stand out for it, but I am aware that a number of their local competitors of lesser lights are capitalizing on the idea of friendliness and respect for customers.
Here in [new state] the popular phrase emblazoned on gun store entry doors is "all firearms must be unloaded, cased or holstered" which seems to adequately deal with the issue. There is one which has also adorned the door with the nearly ubiquitous "no loaded guns" proclamation. When I asked about the obvious conflict the owner said he has no problem with CCW, but their insurance carrier insisted on adding that as a (hopefully) proactive anti-liability measure.
I'm familiar with the gun store chain mentioned in the discussion, and I'll agree with the popular assessment of said chain. My experience is that those employees are not so manifestly less sensitive to customers than others in the same business as to greatly stand out for it, but I am aware that a number of their local competitors of lesser lights are capitalizing on the idea of friendliness and respect for customers.
Here in [new state] the popular phrase emblazoned on gun store entry doors is "all firearms must be unloaded, cased or holstered" which seems to adequately deal with the issue. There is one which has also adorned the door with the nearly ubiquitous "no loaded guns" proclamation. When I asked about the obvious conflict the owner said he has no problem with CCW, but their insurance carrier insisted on adding that as a (hopefully) proactive anti-liability measure.
Divemedic
says:
That particular chain goes a step further: They insist on inspecting your weapon before you fire it on the range. I stopped in one day on a whim, because I had an hour to kill, and decided to get in a bit of trigger time.
The employee asked to inspect the firearm that I would be using, so I had to remove it from concealment and clear it in order to do so. The employee went ballistic. An email exchange ensued, and this is the answer that I got:
http://street-pharmacy.blogspot.com/2012/07/answer-from-gun-store.html
That was followed with this:
http://street-pharmacy.blogspot.com/2012/07/shoot-straight.html
I have spent a LOT of money in that store. I have bought over a dozen firearms there. Not a dime since.
The employee asked to inspect the firearm that I would be using, so I had to remove it from concealment and clear it in order to do so. The employee went ballistic. An email exchange ensued, and this is the answer that I got:
http://street-pharmacy.blogspot.com/2012/07/answer-from-gun-store.html
That was followed with this:
http://street-pharmacy.blogspot.com/2012/07/shoot-straight.html
I have spent a LOT of money in that store. I have bought over a dozen firearms there. Not a dime since.
I know that chain. Hit them up when I first got into Florida. We are slowly moving in, but still back and forth between FL and MD.
Wasn't impressed with the service but thought they'd be good for general purchases. Asked the obligatory question about transfers and was basically told to eff off.
One thing I notices about Florida: no friendly FFLs to help with transfers of odd stuff. Maybe I just haven't been around long enough (Manatee County/Sarasota Area) to know who to talk to. But cooperating FFLs - either store based or home based - are a dime a dozen in Maryland.
Nobody was willing to sell me a shotgun for the FL home - I guess I gotta bring one with me next time I get around to it. I looked at my wife one day after trying to get an HD shotgun (I have an MD license and a FL CCW) and she laughed when I told her it was easier to buy guns in MD, PA and VA than it was in FL.
Not complaining. Just noting.
Wasn't impressed with the service but thought they'd be good for general purchases. Asked the obligatory question about transfers and was basically told to eff off.
One thing I notices about Florida: no friendly FFLs to help with transfers of odd stuff. Maybe I just haven't been around long enough (Manatee County/Sarasota Area) to know who to talk to. But cooperating FFLs - either store based or home based - are a dime a dozen in Maryland.
Nobody was willing to sell me a shotgun for the FL home - I guess I gotta bring one with me next time I get around to it. I looked at my wife one day after trying to get an HD shotgun (I have an MD license and a FL CCW) and she laughed when I told her it was easier to buy guns in MD, PA and VA than it was in FL.
Not complaining. Just noting.
I haven't had a need for an FFL to do a transfer, but there is a tiny little towney gun shop just up the road from Shoot Strait Apopka that (I believe) will do a transfer. Also, there is Buffalo Bill's Shooting Store on N. Mills in Orlando that also does transfers (or at least they did a few years ago when I asked about it).
As for buying a shotgun, if you don't have Florida ID yet, I'm not surprised. I'm not positive, but I believe that you have to be a resident to buy in Florida. Which brings up a good point. If you are living in Florida and own firearms, I think it's a good idea to buy the Gutmacher book, "Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership". It puts all of Florida's firearms laws in one place in case you ever have a question.
s
As for buying a shotgun, if you don't have Florida ID yet, I'm not surprised. I'm not positive, but I believe that you have to be a resident to buy in Florida. Which brings up a good point. If you are living in Florida and own firearms, I think it's a good idea to buy the Gutmacher book, "Florida Firearms - Law, Use & Ownership". It puts all of Florida's firearms laws in one place in case you ever have a question.
s
Stuart & Patrick - RE: transfers. SS in Apopka isn't interested in doing transfers because they perceive them as a hassle.
You might try East Orange Shooting Sports in Winter Park; they do transfers and IIRC their fee is $25 (but check that with them first).
RE: Jon Gutmacher's book - absolutely get one if you live in FL and own a gun, or even if you don't own a gun; make sure it's the latest edition (IIRC, he publishes a fresh edition every 2 years, latest one at the moment is #7). A fair number of gun shops carry the book, but make sure you're getting the latest edition. And check Gutmacher's web site periodically - that's where he posts updates to the laws between editions, and there's a link to his blog where he occasionally answers emailed questions. (http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/).
You might try East Orange Shooting Sports in Winter Park; they do transfers and IIRC their fee is $25 (but check that with them first).
RE: Jon Gutmacher's book - absolutely get one if you live in FL and own a gun, or even if you don't own a gun; make sure it's the latest edition (IIRC, he publishes a fresh edition every 2 years, latest one at the moment is #7). A fair number of gun shops carry the book, but make sure you're getting the latest edition. And check Gutmacher's web site periodically - that's where he posts updates to the laws between editions, and there's a link to his blog where he occasionally answers emailed questions. (http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/).
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