Because some do not want to.

Agreed. I own guns I wouldn't carry with a round chambered, because they're old and have safeties that are impossible to deactivate with one hand (my old Browning HP comes to mind), making it easier and arguably faster to rack the slide. As much as I liked some of these guns, and had good holsters for them, I didn't carry them, because it was impractical to chamber a round (or use two hands to deactivate the safety) before using it. In the case of the BHP, I was able to buy an aftermarket safety from C&S, but for the guns were this is not the case, they become range queens.

I admit, when I first got my CCW the times I carried my 1911 I carried it with an empty chamber. I still had the hammer cocked and the safety on. This was just because carrying a gun was so NEW and I wanted to become more confident that I really could carry without the safety getting swept off somehow. Once I gained familiarity and confidence, I stepped up to having a round in the chamber. Admittedly, for a week or two I flirted with the idea of a round in the chamber and the hammer down, but that didn't last.

s

The ones I don't understand are the ones are scared to carry a 1911 cocked and locked but think nothing of carrying a Glock or M&P which are cocked and not locked (at least not by a conventional manual safety)

Run a 100-yard-dash to simulate a sympathetic "fight or flight" response. Then try a Tueller Drill with Airsoft vs. rubber knife from Conditions 3 and 1.

It's very unpleasant to recognize how little time you have and how badly you can fumble even a simple task like racking the slide.

I've been amazed how many times I've had to explain this to people when they have asked me if I carry with a round chambered. My gun will not go boom unless you have a grip on it and pull the trigger. Time required to chamber a round is not worth the imaginary safety of not having one chambered. Another debate that people try to win with feelings rather than facts.

Robb, I carried that way for a while here in WI, where we constantly had to unload before getting into a car prior to the CCW law being passed. While drawing and racking on a belt or holster does obviously add some time to the draw stroke, for me it does not significantly impeded presentation much more than, say, a concealment garment.

It saved me from having to handle a gun with a chambered round in public constantly, which I think outweighs the danger of the added step in the presentation.

When I'd just gotten my P2C, I didn't carry with a round in the chamber--because I was a total noob at CCW. After doing that for a while and taking a 2nd class, I would carry sporadically with a round in the chamber. After graduating from Front Sight's 4-day handgun course, I pretty much carry all the time (other than when I'm at work). Some people jump in with both feet whereas some people need to acclimate, I suppose.

Still, I completely agree that not having a round in the chamber is a bad idea. Plus, some guns have issues chambering if the slide isn't racked forcefully, which may be a problem in a high-stress situation. That and chambering a round is loud and gives away any strategic advantage one otherwise might've had.

But, but, but, I read somewhere on teh interwebz that all super-secret Israeli assassins carry their guns without a round in the chamber, and if it's good enough for Tier One Tactical Operators like them, it's good enough for me!

(Of course, if they were REALLY super-secret assassins, we wouldn't know how they carried their guns because it would be, well, a secret, right?)

I've never had any worries about carrying with a round in the chamber. Use a holster, and keep your @#$! boogerhook off the bang switch.

Why do people keep numbering the useless ways to carry?

I'd like to propose condition #47 in which you carry in your pocket the pawn shop receipt for your gun and a note to your mommy that you want ammo for Christmas.

I recall the bit of advice to "just carry a revolver".

But why? Revovlvers tend to have no safeties and long pulls in DA. Okay... there are lots of self loaders that have no safeties and a long DA pull.

(That's not to say that there aren't valid reasons to carry a revolver, but empty chamber isn't one).

Why is it seen as "sensible" to carry a self loader with the chamber empty?

But it's seen as maddness to carry a revolver with first chamber to index empty?

Heck you could double your old school safety and carry with both first chamber to fire and the chamber the hammer rests on empty.

I began carrying in Condition 3 because my end-of-day procedure involved me handling a gun in a dark closet two sheets of drywall and less than five feet from my sleeping twins. I traded a tiny bit of increased risk to myself for a larger bit of increased safety for my children. If I'm in a situation where the orc is so close that I can't use both hands, he's getting a neck full of one-handed Benchmade a lot faster than he'd get a chest full of two-handed Corbon anyway.

Until going through a course with Ken Hackethorne I carried with an empty chamber. Now I wouldn't dream of it (with my Glock).

Futzing with an unloaded gun in a stressfull situation only increases the odds of its getting fired accidentally.

When I first bought my gun I would not allow any ammo in the house. My family thought me buying a gun without ammo seemed strange. Go figure. Then finally, I agreed that ammo would probably help in my quest to stop the bad. My husband bought some defensive ammo for me and I actually loaded a magazine full, but did not carry one in the chamber. Eventually, I came to realize that my gun toting skills were not all that impressive and it might serve me well to have all the prep work done before the bad guy came sauntering up. I put one in the pipe and have never looked back. I think that entire process took about 2 weeks.

Because Race Gun.

Before some of our defensive pistol skills classes, we'll run some drills "as you came" to make some points to the students. We have students coming in all manner of readiness, many unready. And some do come without one in the chamber. We work to explain why this is bad.

In a recent edition of the class, there was guy that carried this way. To his credit, he was able to pull off the initial "as you came" drill prety well, racking the slide and getting going and everything. Of course, it was a range drill and he had all the ability in the world to mentally prepare for the challenge. But... at the end of class is a close-quarters drill that demonstrates how one-handed close-in work is often required. I asked him afterwards if he thought he'd be able to do that without one in the chamber. Nope.

I can understand how a first-time carrier might not want one in the chamber... it's all new, could be a little scary, a little uncertainty until you trust the gun and yourself. I can understand. But as long as people are willing to listen, learn, and get over it... well, that's alright.

As I recall, you are the one that convinced me that cocked and locked is the best way to carry my 1911, with a very similar argument to this. I greatly appreciate it!
Good on ya, Robb.
:-D

Ummm... because I live in Mordor, otherwise known as the People's Republic of Illinois. Where the second amendment ot the constitution is... well... inconvenient. So the only way I may carry a firearm "legally" is to have it cased and unloaded. In other words, to defend myself, I need to un-case, load, rack, then fire.

And people wonder why we lead the homicide rolls so often. Urgh.

Sometimes you carry for immediate use. Sometimes you carry so that it's available should anyone need your assistance.

There are many purposes for carrying and not all of those purposes require the quick draw. If you're in a Luby's shoot out then you probably have plenty of time to draw and prepare before the murderer gets to you.

Yes, it's better to keep one in the chamber but it's better to have a forward air controller, a machine gun section and Marvin the Martian's disintegrator too.

I still don't quite get the OMG fear of handling a loaded gun, i.e., not in a holster. Training - repetitive training, daily training, over and over, makes proper handling of firearms and other weapons instinctive. That and an alertness level that always maintains awareness of who and what is going on around you. Keeping your weapon in proper working condition and keeping your manipulator off the actuator, whether it be a personal or crew-served weapon,or anti-personnel or anti-armor device, should never be out of your thoughts. Especially when you are uncasing your firearm for non-offensive purposes. Yes, I get that most such comments are made for the benefit of "newbies", but wouldn't it be better to train for proper handling?

CarlS, many people don't have the time or inclination to spend all that time training. But it's better to have a gun than nothing.

So Skyler, how are you going to know ahead of time what situation you're going to be in? And how can you guarantee that even if you are planning for Situation A, that someone else isn't going to come along and force you into Situation B? Can you guarantee you're going to have plenty of time? Can you control this 100% of the time? Maybe you can, but I can't. If you can, you should bottle and sell that ability because you'll be rich.

How do you know you won't need a machine gun? How do you know you won't need an anti aircraft missile?

The point I was making is that being ready for some threats is better than not being ready for any. If someone isn't quite comfortable with keeping one in the pipe, then it's better they have something along for at least some range of threats.

I figure if I'm in a situation where my draw speed is the determining factor, so much so that I don't have time to chamber a round, then I've already lost.
I'm not Clint Eastwood. I will lose in that situation, regardless of whether I have one in the pipe or not.
I can't remember the last time a gun without a chambered round had an ND. I'll take my chances.

Friends:

Shin Bet officers carry their sidearms with empty chamber becacause they are frequently in "grapple" distance of large numbers of hostile people, who potentially want to disarm them in a scuffle. They practice long and hard to perfect the "Slide rack and simultaneously present " draw. The idea, of course is that if someone should grab their sidearm, while the grabber futzes with the empty chambered weapon, Officer Lehad" has time to deploy a second gun or favorite Kershaw.

This works for Shin Bet, but most Americn private CCW/CHL folks do not face the same tactical situation; the thug accosting you in the parking lot at 2 AM already has a gun, he doesnt need yours.

Protection against UD? There is no idiot proof gun, but modern ones have pretty simple and usually robust mechanisms to make the arm " cant fire", until you are ready. Keeping the finger off the trigger is a big help too.

This is a TRAINING issue. No one wants to go bang unexpectedly, and how to avoid it is well known. Rather than limp along with an empty chambered gun, learn to do it safely, the way the arm was intended to be used.

Regards
GKT

The Israelis use C3 carry across the board because, historically, when you have a conscript army with minimal time spent on handgun training (like all militaries) and a hodge-podge of a half-dozen or more different handguns in issue at any given time, "Jack slide and pull trigger" is the closest you're going to get to a uniform, service-wide, easily-teachable manual of arms that minimizes the chance that Moshe will put a slug through his Foreign Military Sales Danners.

"The increase in safety against an ND/AD is far, far, far outweighed by the danger you put yourself in by not being able to deploy your weapon when needed."

That depends on your odds of a ND.

When I started carrying, appendix carry, I used Israeli carry for 6 months. It worked well. Turns out I could have carried C1, but I'm glad I took the precaution.

"Making it less useful won't make it safer. "

WRONG. Try shooting Making it less useful won't make it safer. yourself in the femoral artery with a C3 gun. Or do a thought experiment. Can it be done so long as it is C3? Nope. Now try it with a C1 gun, definitely as a thought experiment. Can it be done? Yep.

Israeli carry is great for novices and those who don't get to train extensively. Consider someone who goes out and buys a gun for self defense, but doesn't have the time, money, andor inclination to train properly. Should they carry C1? Often, no, C3 will provide them with a retrievable gun while preventing an ND.

If you are more worried about an ND than about being able to instantly defend yourself, you are using the wrong gun. Really. Anything else is just making excuses for a lack of clear thinking on the subject.
Too much "feelings", not enough FACTS.

I was at a 2 class defensive handgun class this weekend, where one of the prerequisites was to have a CCP, and about half the class had to put their handgun on at the start of class.
I could not wrap my mind around that concept.
I consider carrying Condition 3 as being just as intentionally unprepared for a deadly force encounter as not carrying when authorized to do so.

My comment about repetitive training, and Skyler's about time and inclination? If you do the training correctly, I can guarantee you will generate muscle memory that will stay with you after you slack off to traiing once a wek or once a month or so. But you've got to train. If you don't have the time or the inclination to learn how to use a tool, how're you gonna drive them nails straight?

Mark, possibly they thought it was a 'no guns in class 'till we tell you' situation, like a lot of CCW classes.

Personally, I wouldn't carry a semi-auto with an empty chamber: besides the general 'reduce the number of things to do', I have some arthritis problems with my hands, so the thought of having to rack the slide while facing a problem on a bad-hands day is not something I like.

A reasoned argument for chamber-empty here: http://thinkinggunfighter.blogspot.com/2010/09/myths-of-israeli-method-of-carry-or-why.html

I don't understand how someone can be enough to need an empty chamber so they don't shoot themselves, but are then magically skilled enough to run the slide before shooting someone else.

Then you have the whole "Every time they chamber a round, they have self-trained to rack the slide to empty the chamber" issue.

If you are worried about shooting yourself more than about using the handgun defensively, maybe you are attempting to talk yourself into

Firehand, no, no restrictions were in place, I showed up carrying, and left carrying, both days (typo from first post, was a two day class, Sat. and Sun., not a 2 class class :) ).
The instructors gave people time before the range portions each day to arm up.

Carrying condition 3 actually requires more training than condition 1. People will always default to muscle reflexes in a stress situation. Muscle memory for most casual shooters is to point and pull the trigger. Gaining the muscle memory to rack the slide first requires train hours, hours better spent learning to properly carry, draw and fire their weapon of choice.

Fun fact: The Marine Corps used to teach condition 3 carry. It was retired because it required less training hours to teach proper weapons safety.

Actually, the USMC requires condition 1 in combat zones unless you're outside the wire. That is, no magazine inserted and nothing in the chamber. On a FOB in a war zone, with people intending to kill you potentially in your midst walking around the camp, you aren't even allowed a magazine to be in your sidearm or your rifle.

Your information about weapons conditions in theater are outdated. I left Afghanistan 3 weeks ago and it was condition 1 for sidearms, and condition 3 for rifles aboard all FOBs and condition 1 for rifles on PBs. This was changed because of the internal threat from ANSF forces.

I remember seeing pictures of Marines in Lebanon with their M-16s with magazine well empty.

I see threat and readiness, each as a probabilistic continuium, with different readiness levels being more or less matched to each other. I note some people don't unload their pistols as they put them in the safe, just pop them in holster and all, then take them out, and put them on (with a chamber check). That reduces opportunity for ND, which is sometimes a good thing.

After the bombing of the barracks in Lebanon, the Commandant of the Marine Corps decreed that no Marine was allowed to stand post again with a weapon that was not loaded, whether in garrison in the US or overseas. M-16's and M-9's had to be loaded with a magazine and a round in the chamber, but the M1911 was to be kept with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber. This exception for the M1911 was because that pistol is perceived as not being inherently safe when a round is in the chamber.

We've gone round and round on this, but it all comes down to the individual and the gun. One person may prefer to keep it one way or another, and it's just a preference. It is neither right or wrong.

When I was a much younger pup and a hunting guide, I had a former FBI agent as a client that told me that me carrying one chambered in my 1911 was extremely dangerous and irresponsible. Even at 22 I knew who the irresponsible person was.

As I have told my students and those simply inquiring, what happens if you take a "cocked and locked" 1911 and heave it down the middle lane of the Dallas North Tollway ?

Nothing. Absolutely Nothing.

Except the pistol will need to be refinished.

The same can be said for any major brand of modern sidearm. The key is understanding and using the safety mechanisms available - chief among them being "keep the finger off the trigger until you are ready to launch a ball".

If someone cannot do that, they need more training, and until they get some they should not be carrying anyway.

This aint rocket science.

Regards

GKT

I can think of one reason why you might want to carry in Condition 3, and it applies to both revolver and automatic pistols.

In Utah, it is legal to carry a gun without a concealed carry permit--I think it has to be in the open, though--and I know that your gun has to be two steps away from firing for it to be legal.

For example, rack the slide and pull the trigger, for an automatic pistol, or pull the trigger twice, on a DA revolver, or cock and pull the trigger on a SA revolver.

So, if you don't want to get permission from the government to exercise your right, this has to be the way to go...at least, until we can get Constitutional Carry here!

@ Skyler:

"One person may prefer to keep it one way or another, and it's just a preference. It is neither right or wrong."

Bullshit. As I said previously, this is based on feelings, not rational thought on the subject. Granted, there are some old gun designs that this might be appropriate, but they shouldn't be used for carry purposes anyway. We're talking current guns.
It's hard to divorce feelings from the subject of guns, but this is a serious subject. I'm tempted to say this smacks of Democrat/left-wing sort of thinking (which is mostly about feelings and not facts), but I really don't want to get into name-calling. I'm just trying to jar some of you out of your thinking rut you have dug over the years.

If you are scared of a full chamber in an auto, get a revolver, and leave the first chamber empty (still kind of stupid) so you only have to pull the trigger twice to get it to go bang. BUT, you can do it with only ONE HAND.

If you study the stats on defensive engagements, you find at least half are done by firing the handgun with ONE hand. So, you really want to roll the dice on YOUR next fight? Do you spend a lot of training time practicing racking the slide every time you draw? You had better, or you are just fooling yourself. I recall reading Ayoob having data on this subject of empty chamber carry, and it's not good.

Will, do not mistake my arguments to counter bigoted arguments as evidence that I don't carry a round in the chamber of my pistols. I do. I just also understand why some people would not like to. You are getting emotional about what other people do, even though it is frankly none of your business.

My point is that to carry with an empty chamber is not insane or senseless. Having a pistol available at all is much better than having nothing at all. Quick draws are only needed in certain circumstances. It is entirely rational for someone to decide that this is not a capability they value.

And besides, the 1911 style pistol is hardly a non-current gun. Plenty of people carry them. If even the Marines think they should think twice about keeping a round chambered, then it's not crazy talk.

I sometimes have to carry for work and it while we can have magazines in we aren't allowed to have anything chambered. In order to be consistent training wise when I carry at home I do the same.

Skyler, please get your facts straight. The Marines do not think twice about carrying with loaded chambers. The old carry policies were instituted by CYA burecrats who held the same irrational fears as you. It wasn't until that policy started getting Marines killed that they changed it. So using your own argument, if the Marines feel safer with condition 1 sidearms, shouldn't you?

You are not well informed. I don't think you can call General Gray a man who was easily pushed around by anyone with a CYA mentality.

You're fighting a loser argument.

re: carrying 1911 hammer down on live round. Terrible and dangerous idea. Worse than C3 carry because the 1911 has to be manually decocked (have seen someone ND w injury when hammer slipped) and many 1911s lack the firing pin safety required for the gun to be drop safe in that carry mode. Bypasses both the thumb and grip safeties designed into the pistol to make it drop safe and safe to carry in C1.