Sharp as a Marble - Your weekend argument

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Your weekend argument

Competitive shooting , Guns. Lots of Guns.

Last weekend at USPSA, another shooter had an M&P with an Apex trigger system in it. I hadn’t put much stock into pistol triggers, assuming the nicer ones acted more like a single action where the break was ultra-crisp and that eventually I’d get one but it was down on my list of things to do. However, after trying the trigger on an M&P 9, I now know there is no way I can ever shoot this gun again until I get that system into my 40.

I have never felt such an amazing trigger. Once you started pulling, the weight never changed through the entire travel. It was like it was on a roller and I could not discern where the break was other than hearing the hammer fall. There was no détente, no catch, nada. The trigger had a consistent ~3.5# pull from start to end. I cannot comprehend how you could flinch using this trigger as there was no single point where I could tell the sear was just about to trip.

Argument time – I plan on eventually carrying the M&P for SD. Good idea with a competition trigger or not?

Go.

posted @ 12/9/2011 1:17:28 PM

Incoming Links

Trigger pull | Gun Nuts Media on 12/12/2011 1:34:00 PM

Comments

SayUncle says:

on 12/9/2011 1:50:05 PM

Good idea with a competition trigger or not?

Same as the answer to the question: will you keep it holstered?

The only thing I see wrong is if some prosecutor wants to say 'he modified his gun to kill' or some such.

Sean D Sorrentino says:

on 12/9/2011 1:57:33 PM

Mas Ayoob says it's a bad idea. Michael Bane thinks it's not really necessary, but nowadays there are plenty of lawyers capable of defending trigger work in court.

My suspicion is that unless they think you shot the guy accidentally, the trigger is the least of your worries.

I'd be worried that some idiot on the jury was so stupid that she believed that handloaders were triple charging their bullets so that they shot 150 gram cop killing bullets at 2,800 miles per hour.

Apparently people that stupid actually exist.

Robb Allen says:

on 12/9/2011 2:00:27 PM

Well, I won't be reloading .40, so I have that going for me.

George says:

on 12/9/2011 2:02:11 PM

Apex makes two versions, a duty version and a competition version. I've got the Apex duty trigger pack in all my M&Ps, carry and competition. Take a look at the RAM as well, which gives you a nice tactile reset feel.

As much as I love Mas, I think his legal theory is outdated. If Apex specifically markets the sear as a "Duty & Carry Action Kit" it seems reasonable to me to have it in a carry gun.

Caleb says:

on 12/9/2011 2:10:42 PM

Not. The competition trigger kit is under 4 pounds, which is generally as low as professional trainers recommend for a duty pistol.

Oscar says:

on 12/9/2011 2:15:59 PM

I think apex has a carry/duty triger kit also

Robb Allen says:

on 12/9/2011 2:19:53 PM

Being dead serious and not trying to go Full-Retard, why would it be considered dangerous to carry around this in a duty pistol but safe enough to handle in competition where you know the pistol is clearing leather on a regular basis?

SayUncle says:

on 12/9/2011 2:25:46 PM

Comp trigger gets it to under 3 lbs. Carry is 5ish. You can adjust by sticking with some factory springs. Range seems to be less than three to 5.5. I'd like to keep it at about 4.

STW says:

on 12/9/2011 2:28:30 PM

Apex specifically says not to carry with the competition trigger. That's why they have the carry version. I changed the sear and added the RAM to my M&P45 and the trigger went from 8+ pounds to just over 5 smooth and easy pounds. I left in the stock springs so I'm somewhere between their carry trigger weight and the duty trigger weight. Combined with a thumb safety it makes a nice compromise. As I understand it, the sear and RAM are the same between versions, the springs make one or the other.

Gerry says:

on 12/9/2011 2:38:29 PM

I put one in my M&P Pro as a gamer gun. It worked as you described and thats why I did not like it. Some folks do love it but it was hard for me to give up the crisp break for the rolling pull.

Will it hurt you in a crimminal case, no.
Will it hurt you in a civ1l case, maybe.

I have to say the folks at Apex were great to deal with.

Chuck says:

on 12/9/2011 3:18:05 PM

Any idea how many 1911s are riding around in holsters with a very crisp 4 pound trigger?

Caleb says:

on 12/9/2011 3:27:44 PM

I honestly don't know where the "4 lb trigger" number came from, but the generally accepted wisdom is to avoid carry guns with triggers under that weight.

Jeff says:

on 12/9/2011 3:45:45 PM

I wouldn't run the full comp kit in a carry gun, but I don't like it on my comp gun either. I use the competition kit, except with the factory trigger return spring. This is about 4 pounds and feels really nice. The competition trigger return spring drops it to 2.something, but it feels mushy to me. I feel like I'm waiting on the trigger to come back forward. If I were you, I'd try it with all 3 springs and decide which you're comfortable with. (competition spring is lighter than factory, duty is heavier).

Peter says:

on 12/9/2011 3:59:48 PM

Depends on the situation, obviously. For your standard gunfight over a parking space, the stock trigger should suffice.

If, on the other hand, you need to shoot down an airliner full of children, the lighter trigger would be advisable.

:)

Farm.dad says:

on 12/9/2011 4:56:10 PM

As long as you are confident you can get your lawyer to articulate to a jury that the modification will help accuracy and thus limit the danger of a missed shot to innocent bystanders you should be golden with any safe trigger mod in a carry gun.

Freiheit says:

on 12/9/2011 6:54:22 PM

"The only thing I see wrong is if some prosecutor wants to say 'he modified his gun to kill' or some such."

God help me if I'm ever involved in that situation. "No, I did not modify the gun to kill, I expected it to kill right out of the goddamn box. I modified the trigger to get better scores shooting paper."

Skip says:

on 12/9/2011 10:22:59 PM

"Any idea how many 1911s are riding around in holsters with a very crisp 4 pound trigger?"
Ahem, I know of two.

SPQR says:

on 12/9/2011 10:43:19 PM

As many times as Mas has been involved in defending good/so-so/bad shoots, I don't think I'd ever argue with him.

And I've seen enough dirty tricks from DA's and plaintiff attorneys to reinforce that the advice to use factory ammo and stock guns where possible for self-defense is good advice.

Remember that its possible to have to defend a self-defense shoot TWICE. Once in a criminal trial and the second in a civil trial by the perp or his heirs.

Chris Byrne says:

on 12/10/2011 12:38:44 AM

My comment turned into a novel, so I posted it here:

http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2011/12/firearms-mythbusting-part-i-cant.html

The gist of it is, the 4lb number isn't based on any physiological factor.

Basically, it's how light you could get a worn out 1911s trigger with late ww2 through 70s quality production parts (which may or may not be heat treated or machined properly), and not have it hammer follow, trigger double, runaway, or have hammer push off.

CapitalistPig says:

on 12/12/2011 1:34:51 AM

I think the liability issue is a big concern with having a competition trigger in a carry gun. If you have an "oops", it would be easy for the other side's lawyer show that the trigger modification caused the AD/ND.

A highly respected USPSA shooter recently pointed out that competition shooters are willing to trade reliability for a performance edge. Nobody wants to blow a stage or get a DQ, but it is just a game. It is nothing compared to a self defense situation.

Shenaniguns says:

on 12/13/2011 12:41:02 PM

Just a heads up, the DCAEK and RAM from Apex Tactical Specialties is approved for over a dozen police agencies so far. I conceal carry one of two DCAEK M&P's everyday with complete confidence.

Robb Allen says:

on 12/13/2011 1:10:17 PM

Shananiguns, thanks. I still have to get a holster to carry the M&P, but that seems more and more likely the more I shoot it. Depending on how the trigger works for me in competition, that might be the deciding factor on if I give up the Glock 20 and switch over.

Aaron says:

on 12/15/2011 7:36:46 AM

I would carry whatever I shot best.

You carry it because you might have to use it. If you have to use it, there's no advantage too small.

Comments have been closed on this topic.