Sharp as a Marble - I have a much longer post about OC’ing but I wanted to bring this up

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I have a much longer post about OC’ing but I wanted to bring this up

Open Carry

Sebastian talks about ‘going too far’ with OC’ing long arms

UPDATE: OTOH, if the folks who are engaging in attention seeking behavior now need to up the ante to rifles, because pistols just don’t grab attention like they used to, maybe there is something to the OC theory.

And I both hope and believe he is right. At my events, very few people actually notice the firearms. It took a guy with an AR pistol slung across his back to get us noticed one time.

But in the comments, Sebastian says this, and this is what I want to highlight

We carry rifles to deal with expected threats. We carry handguns to deal with unexpected threats.

And I can’t find myself arguing with that.

What are your thoughts?

posted @ 2/16/2011 2:48:44 PM

Incoming Links

SayUncle » More on Michigan OCers taking shotguns to libraries on 2/17/2011 10:58:00 AM

Comments

Sebastian says:

on 2/16/2011 3:05:25 PM

Basically, if you're running into the restaurant with your AR because there's a guy running around shooting people, I'll call you eminently sensible for bringing the proper weapon to deal with an expected threat. One of the things I wonder about that poor guy (Mark Allen Wilson) who died confronting that shooter in Tyler, Texas is why he grabbed a pistol instead of a rifle. If you know you're going to be shooting at someone, a rifle is the better tool for the fight. Especially if the other guy has one.

Rich B says:

on 2/16/2011 3:13:24 PM

I am of the opinion that no one needs to agree with it or like it.

They have the right and they have the law on their side. Go for it. Whatever blows your skirt up.

People who are frightened and intimidated by firearms that are slung or holstered have the issue, not the person carrying them. Hopefully we can fix them, but otherwise, it seems like natural selection should eventually take over when those people are too terrified of inanimate objects to defend themselves and their young ones.

Carl says:

on 2/16/2011 3:13:53 PM

Great observation by Sebastian. Very well-put.

PhillipC says:

on 2/16/2011 3:16:08 PM

It's all a matter of place, time, and using some common sense. The guy carrying a rifle at a fishing event was obviously fishing and ignoring everyone around him based on the video you posted. What was the guy with the shotgun doing in the library or the guy with the AR doing in a Ponderosa?

When I carry, I make an extra effort to be polite and friendly, even though I'm carrying concealed. When open carrying, you have an obligation to make it obvious that you're not the threat.

Unfortunately, these people are being rude to people on their own side, which means they're probably rude to people they encounter during their gatherings. This is counterproductive.

Robb Allen says:

on 2/16/2011 3:20:01 PM

@Rich B,

Just for clarification, my position is that if you wish to carry a MaDuce on your back, you should be allowed to.

The point is though that we don't live in a society where everyone's rights are respected. Scare enough of those people, and they will react in ways that ensure tighter gun laws are a given. I don't like it, but it's a reality.

The point is more about OC'ing as activism rather than the laws regarding openly carrying. Some activism can be damaging. On the other hand, sometimes you have to sit at the front of the bus even when thousands are telling you to not rock the boat. It's a very fine line to walk but unfortunately does not come with a corresponding clear line as to what is and what isn't effective.

I've seen stories where pistols alone rile up people and have experienced rifles that barely raised eyebrows.

Mike W. says:

on 2/16/2011 3:27:10 PM

"The point is though that we don't live in a society where everyone's rights are respected. Scare enough of those people, and they will react in ways that ensure tighter gun laws are a given. I don't like it, but it's a reality."

Exactly. In a perfect world I could just say "fuck it, it's my right" and do whatever the hell I wanted. In the real world it's best to temper your approach when engaging in activism.

If you scare folks enough they will react in a way that is detrimental to us. That's the point I tried to make with my post today and the Black Panther example I used. It'll probably be lost on the more rabid of the OC crowd.

Hell, looking at comments these folks are being amazingly antagonistic with people like Breda and I, and we are on their side for christsakes.

Rich B says:

on 2/16/2011 3:27:38 PM

@Robb,
That is why I don't think the fact someone is carrying a shotgun or a rifle is really all that consequential. I have had the police called on me for carrying a Glock 23, pretty much the same thing you will see many cops carrying in daily practice.

Some people are going to react negatively, the vast majority will not. The people who react negatively are the problem, not the OCers.

I am not about to admonish someone for carrying a long gun when the same arguments people make against OCing a long gun are the same ones I hear about carry a pistol.

Robb Allen says:

on 2/16/2011 3:43:21 PM

Rich, it's not admonishing because of the long gun, it's admonishing because of intent.

If you're trying to be "in your face" about it, bad things can happen regardless of what you're carrying.

I'll have more up later when I can reorganize my thoughts and get them all in one place.

Rich B says:

on 2/16/2011 3:50:42 PM

@Robb:

I don't have enough information about 'intent', I am sure not going to go off the news report that people were 'flashing holsters in people's faces' (what does that even mean?) or off various blogger's assessments that they were acting like 'buffoons' or 'assholes'. If he simply walked in and started browsing for books with a shotgun slung, I just cannot see any other 'intent'.

I hear all the time that it is 'OK' if I OC because I am just OCing, but it is not 'OK' if I OC because I am making a political point, or because I want to show off my firearm or whatever.

I don't subscribe to that, nor do I understand why we would allow that to be a qualifier.

I think it is impossible to judge by intent in a situation like this, but behavior is a suitable measure. No one is reported to have been anything but polite, the police were called but refused to detain or interact with the OCers in anyway and have since declared that they won't be responding for simple OCing again. The guy with the shotgun actually is reported to have left when an (unlawful) request was made of him to leave.

Stuart the Viking says:

on 2/16/2011 4:34:51 PM

Here in Florida, we don't (yet) have general OC. We are allowed to OC while hunting and fishing and Robb has been doing his OC events here and there while fishing and I certianly wish I lived closer so that I could attend one of his events (which would also mean I would need to get a fising lic and fishing gear).

There is one possible problem I see with OC of rifles and/or shotguns. Handguns that are openly carried, are generally openly carried in a holster. If the handgun leaves the holster, it is no longer being "openly carried", it is being "brandished". Because of their size, shotguns and rifles don't generally fit into handy holsters, they are usually carried by slinging them over your shoulder. This is a much less secure way of carrying. With a handgun, you can sit down at a resturant no problem (just don't stray too close to the bar area, then you might go insane and shoot people). With a rife or shotgun at sling arms, a person would usually have to manipulate said rifle in some manner to sit. As soon as that rifle leaves your shoulder and is in your hands, it seems that you would be stepping real close to the line between OC and brandishing.

Right? I admit that my understanding of the law might be imperfect.

s

Rich B says:

on 2/16/2011 4:43:40 PM

In my experience, most states do not have a statutory definition of 'brandishing'.

I do agree that muzzle control and many other issues abound when carrying a long gun in public, but this is the responsibility of the carrier.

Joe Huffman says:

on 2/16/2011 4:53:38 PM

Political statements aside my criteria is to carry a rifle when I have definite plans to use it or know that the unexpected threat requires more firepower than can be provided by a handgun. This covers hunting and self defense against large animals like a bear.

One the political front I think my open carry as a political statement post is still applicable. The type of carry, when, and where requires some political awareness. A "rule" we come up with that works in Florida may not be appropriate for NYC or San Francisco and might be pointless in Orofino Idaho.

Tony says:

on 2/16/2011 5:04:50 PM

My thoughts on the matter? As an outsider, I can only offer the observation that once upon a time, a chap could transport a long gun without trying to hide it in most parts of the world, without incident. Today, one can not. I find this rather sad.

...And in the mean while, the Swiss - nancy-boy euroweenies though they may be - have somehow managed to retain that old-fashioned, matter-of-fact attitude towards their firearms, while in the United States even some people who declare themselves pro-gun talk about shooting anyone who walks into a restaurant with an unhidden long gun. That strikes me as rather strange.

Sebastian says:

on 2/16/2011 5:10:37 PM

It's all about context. The Swiss retained it because they retained a universal militia system that results in a lot of people needing to move about the country with rifles slung over their shoulders. Everyone gets the context, so it's not a big deal.

Occasionally when I'm driving out in rural PA, I'll see people coming headed off into the woods with rifles. Not alarming, because I understand the context.

When someone comes into a restaurant with an AR-15 slung, I'm going to be apprehensive, not because I'm afraid of the rifle, but because the only contexts I can put that in, other than attention seeking behavior, are the kinds where I might have to use a firearm in self-defense. If people started carrying long arms regularly for self-defense, that would change, but is that going to happen? Carrying a long gun is a lot of burden for the very unlikely event you're going to need it.

Tony says:

on 2/16/2011 5:19:38 PM

Nobody in Switzerland needs to carry their carbine, uncovered and on a sling, into McDonald's. They just do it because it is more convenient than using a carry case, and because for them it is not such a big deal. You can't use the cadre system as a sole excuse to explain the Swiss gun culture.

Rich B says:

on 2/16/2011 5:25:15 PM

It is unlikely any of us *need* to carry a firearm at all. I doubt any of us would be dumb enough to leave the house if we did.

It isn't about need.

DJ says:

on 2/16/2011 6:39:31 PM

"The essential difference is that the pistol is designed to solve totally
unexpected problems, whereas the rifle is taken in hand when the problem is
foreseeable. Thus instant readiness is the primary quality of the pistol. As
has been well said, "You cannot make an appointment for an emergency." When
you know there is going to be an emergency, you pick up your rifle. Now
there are all sorts of curious circumstances which may pose specific
exceptions to the foregoing principles, but the fact remains that the two
instruments fill different tactical niches, and training and practice
should be based upon that concept.
" -- Jeff Cooper

ExurbanKevin says:

on 2/16/2011 7:08:45 PM

I don't open carry, even though open carry has been the norm in Arizona since Barry Goldwater was a lad. Openly carrying a firearm is a display of potential deadly force, and as such, it is crucial for the person openly carrying to downplay this, at least in today's society. That may change, and I support those who are trying to make open carry the norm, but if someone walked into a restaurant with a slung AR, I'd go into Condition Orange right away because this is not normal, even in an open carry state.

Skullz says:

on 2/16/2011 10:26:15 PM

Meh... whatever floats your boat.

This whole "you're gonna ruin it for the rest of us" crap has got to stop.

I'm not partial to open carry, but I don't begrudge those who want to. I also wouldn't want to lug my AR or shotgun around - cause it's gotta get old and tiring - but I don't begrudge those who want to exercise their rights.

For those who say "If I saw a slung AR, I would go to condition orange" or, as Sebastian said "I'd have my hand on my pistol", I call BS. The CIVILLIAN law enforcement community in many major cities carry rifles every day. And I doubt that any of us would begin to clear leather if a cop walking in the train station with his AR showed up.

What we should be doing is telling the sacred people that as long as no one as threatened or in any danger, they shouldn't worry about some show off with a shotgun.

ExurbanKevin says:

on 2/16/2011 11:47:34 PM

"If I saw a slung AR, I would go to condition orange" or, as Sebastian said "I'd have my hand on my pistol", I call BS.

Call it what you want to (amazing how you can read my mind: Can you tell what I'm thinking about you now?), but that's what I'd do.
If I see someone carrying ANYTHING, pistol or not, I notice it. Not because my reaction is "Eeek, there's a guy with a gun!", it's because it's out of the ordinary for this to happen around me, even in Arizona. Noticing such things and reacting appropriately is the heart of the combat mindset: For me to say "Oh, hey, look, there's a cop with an AR. No biggie." is to ignore a potentially dangerous change in my environment and in doing so, put myself and my family at risk.

I'm actually somewhat used to cops with long guns: When I lived in Costa Rica, cops with MP-5's were the norm. This is not true for Arizona: Chances are, if the long guns are out, they're out for a reason.

The same goes for civilian open carry: I judge what is happening in context. Two guys with scoped rifles on their backs in a small town is no worry, but a guy with an AR in my neighborhood will ALWAYS have my attention. And if I'm looking for the perfect carne asada in a carnicería at 40th St and Southern and two guys with slung AK's walk in, I am hitting the floor as fast as I can.

ExurbanKevin says:

on 2/16/2011 11:54:09 PM

The astonishing thing here is...

Robb and Sebastian agree on an open carry issue.

Quick, somebody bronze this thread and save it for posterity. :)

Tony says:

on 2/17/2011 3:38:15 AM

I find it interesting that the folks who talk about how they would immediately grab their pistol, duck, or whatever upon seeing a long gun, do not appear to make any distinction to the manner in which the gun is carried, the body language of the person carrying it, or anything else. It is the mere presence of a bigger gun that trips their mental trigger.

J T Bolt says:

on 2/17/2011 8:34:11 AM

Personally, I don't go from condition yellow to orange, necessaily, when I see a holstered pistol at TGIFridays. Certainly hardly ever. I DO go to orange when I see a slung AR or Mossberg. On a cop. Moreso with a person in civvies. Call that scaredy cat behavior or whatever, but it's still how I react, honestly. And I'm very friendly to gun rights.

I've never seen law enforcement with a rifle in public, ever. Nor do I want to. Nor should police have access to more firepower than us nonLEO types.

Skullz says:

on 2/17/2011 9:27:18 AM

The entire amtrack line from PA through NJ and into NY has the state police patrolling with AR-15s (both semi and full auto) every day. I guess they are expecting trouble?

I still doubt anyone would put their hand on their pistol if they passed one of the boys in blue.

While I agree that no police force should have firearms the public cannot have, the fact is that they do.

Rich B says:

on 2/17/2011 10:49:57 AM

Making any move towards your pistol at the site of someone with a long gun ordering a cheeseburger or cup of coffee casually is in my mind the perfect argument for the Bradys.

Blood will run in the street!

Where did someone get their training where they would be reaching for their firearm when someone with a long gun walked in? Do they realize that most soccer moms wouldn't even be alarmed (if they even noticed)?

Furthermore, I find it excellent that with all we know today of handgun stopping power and gunfights that anyone would think "Guy with an AR-15? No problem, I have a 9mm Glock!". Good luck with that, but I don't know of a single trainer who would tell you to engage and not at least try to retreat if you truly thought he was going to start mowing people down after politely ordering his coffee.

Come on guys, get your heads on straight, you are playing right into a Brady ad campaign.

Note: I am obviously referring to any response that involves you getting your firearm ready. I have no issue with seeing something out of the norm and paying a little more attention to the person. I understand there are probably plenty of people who do this same thing with regards to me when I OC a handgun. But if you are going to be reaching for your firearm when I walk in, you are nothing better than any other criminal, don't expect to be treated any differently. I have no problem calling the police on people who interfere with my lawful OC.

ExurbanKevin says:

on 2/17/2011 10:50:52 AM

The entire amtrack line from PA through NJ and into NY has the state police patrolling with AR-15s (both semi and full auto) every day. I guess they are expecting trouble?

Go back and read my post as slowly as you need to, taking time to sound out the words as needed.

It is all about the CONTEXT. F-Bombs in an R-Rate movie aren' tan issue, but harsh language at a daycare is. Make the connection yet?

Shockingly, a long gun at the shooting range doesn't send me into Condition Orange (strange, because I must be a closet holophobe...), because that is part of the normal environment of a shooting range or a hunting trip or a 3 gun match or whatever.

If AR's on trains are normal where you live, good, don't worry about them, much like I didn't worry about the cops with close air support when I lived overseas.

But where I live, long guns are not the norm, and therefore, when they show up, it's cause for concern.

Rich B says:

on 2/17/2011 10:57:03 AM

Sounds like the way to solve ExurbanKevin's problem is to normalize long gun open carry where he is.

And how do we do that?

DesertRat says:

on 2/17/2011 2:45:07 PM

We carry rifles to deal with expected threats. We carry handguns to deal with unexpected threats.

Personally I'd say long guns rather than rifles, but that sums it up pretty well in my book. As for the "kid" who couldn't carry a handgun because he was between 18 and 21, I think we should consider getting that law changed.

perlhaqr says:

on 2/17/2011 11:47:22 PM