Sharp as a Marble - The great caliber debate

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The great caliber debate

Guns. Lots of Guns.

Strictly speaking handguns, what makes a particular caliber good? What makes them useful for self defense? What criteria should you look at when selecting a firearm insofar as it’s caliber is concerned?

Here’s the trick – Discuss why you should choose a particular caliber, but you are not allowed to mention any caliber by name / size / Dewey Decimal Number / etc. You must describe the properties of the round that makes it useful for self defense, period.

Can you do it?

I will get all japete on you and moderate comments that fail the “No mention of the caliber itself” rule ;)

posted @ 12/12/2010 7:28:16 PM

Incoming Links

SayUncle » Caliber Debate on 12/13/2010 10:07:40 AM

Sharp as a Marble - Mediations on caliber on 12/15/2010 9:01:20 AM

Comments

Freiheit says:

on 12/12/2010 7:53:01 PM

Suitable for the US military for 70ish years. Suitable for certain branches or groups of the US military for 30 years beyond that. If its good enough for Gomer Pyle working the fence or for Billy Badass in spec-ops its more than good enough for me.

Robert says:

on 12/12/2010 8:21:26 PM

I got into firearms via rifles and shotguns, so from my point of view, all handgun rounds are anemic; a compromise of concealability and controllability. Therefor, what matters most is shot placement. Caliber is a secondary concern.

So, for me, "good" is defined as being controllable so that shot placement and the ability to make follow-up shots does not suffer, while still being powerful enough to reach the desired 12+ inches of penetration.

Given that most of the traditional choices are quite easily capable of meeting these criteria, the question becomes not which caliber, but which platform.

topofthechain says:

on 12/12/2010 8:31:02 PM

This round is the oldest military handgun cartridge still in use. Ordinary Citizens, militaries, police forces, all use or have used this cartridge. It's low recoil and high capacity serve it well for new shooters. It's ease of availability will help it continue to be popular for years to come. And it is indeed on one side of a great caliber debate.

alan says:

on 12/12/2010 8:35:32 PM

The good caliber is the one you carry with you.

That's all that matters.

rustmeister says:

on 12/12/2010 8:40:35 PM

This caliber has been the quintessential self defense and law enforcement round up till the '90s.

It is still one of the most common handgun rounds in existence and is used in ultra-reliable sidearms. Its higher pressure rounds are comparable to the more modern round that replaced it.

Its only drawback is most of these sidearms are not high capacity, with 8 being the top end in most cases.

However, in most cases of self defense, it's seven more than necessary.

It's plentiful, relatively cheap and commonly reloaded. It also has the bonus of being commonly known and respected outside of "gunnie" circles, which can be helpful when pleading a self defense case in front of a jury.

BenC says:

on 12/12/2010 8:44:10 PM

A caliber I consider suitable for self defense needs to meet the same criteria as Robert posted above. But it also needs to have several common commercial defense loadings available, and readily available practice ammo.

Good penetration
Easily controlable
Reliable & ergonomic platform
Readily available ammo

Robb Allen says:

on 12/12/2010 8:49:01 PM

BenC hits on what I'm really attempting here. I'm not trying to get people to describe the .45 / 10mm / 9mm / etc. What I'm trying to get out of people are the qualities in a caliber that make the caliber worthy for self defense. By taking away the 'naming' of the caliber, it forces you to think why you want a particular round.

For me, a round should be as powerful as you can reliably control, is within your price range so that you can practice on a constant basis, has good penetration, and for me, I find capacity to be a very important factor. 8 rounds isn't acceptable (for me, your mileage may vary). 10 is my minimum for a primary carry piece.

Lokidude says:

on 12/12/2010 8:58:02 PM

While I fully agree with Ben on the qualities of a good defensive round (or any round for a specific purpose, actually), I have to disagree with Robb on capacity, for reasons I was thinking about last night. For all of my carry guns, I carry 2 spare magazines or speedloaders. In my preferred carry gun, that gives me 25 total rounds. If I need more than that, IMHO, I need friends, long arms, and to be somewhere else. But, as you said, YMMV.

McThag says:

on 12/12/2010 9:15:56 PM

Adequate penetration. Has to go far enough into the target to cause a serious wound.

Repeatable accuracy. Can't fall into a trap where a given lot of ammunition is excellent, but the next batch is inconsistent.

Reliable and predictably sized wound channel. Either start large enough to do the needed damage or always expand to that size.

Readily available and affordable cartridges. Basically, the only reliable source of ammo can't be the internet, it's got to be one that every gun store has.

Readily available and affordable firearms chambered for it. If there's ammo, there tends to be guns, but some guns are really expensive even if the ammo is cheap.

The firearm in question must be dependable with the round.

The firearm must be pleasant enough to shoot that the owner will not dread practicing with it.

The firearm must have a large enough magazine or cylinder to last out a "typical" fight and must be easily reloaded.

The firearm must be small and light enough to be carried rather than left at home.

Robb Allen says:

on 12/12/2010 9:18:40 PM

Depends on the piece. I've yet to be able to carry extra magazines on me because I don't have extra mag holders and even then, I'd have 31 rounds, probably more than I'll ever need.

I don't know what the statistics are on civilian (non-police) gunfights are for number of shots fired, but I highly doubt most civvies manage a magazine change. However, I'd much prefer 15+1 than 2 extra mags of 8. I've shot competition, I know how screwed up a mag change can be under pressure, and that's not counting the fact the paper targets aren't returning volleys.

BenC says:

on 12/12/2010 9:30:14 PM

Capacity alone is less of a concern to me than reliability and concealability in a given platform.

Most days I carry a revolver with 5 rounds (plus a speed strip reload), because it is what I can always have with me. Home defense is an auto with 17+1 in it, but it is large enough to make carrying it at work, concealed, impossible.

1911Man says:

on 12/12/2010 9:36:42 PM

I'm not officially sanctioned by organizations X, Y, or Z, but I do teach a lot of new handgunners each year. My advice to them is always:
* pick a gun that you will carry and that you like shooting
* then pick a caliber with which you will your most lethal, deadly, aggressive counter-attacking self
* and pick a caliber for which ammo is widely available (and, ideally, scroungable)

I walk them through the respective pros and cons of semi-autos and revolvers, and teach them why their ammos are different. One of the key pros for semi-autos is that the most common failure part -- mag spring -- is, conveniently, also the one you can replace during a fight and the one which you will have thousands and thousands of reps' worth of practice replacing.

They almost always ask what *I* carry. I preface my answer with "but this is only what *I* picked and might not be ideal for you", before telling them what my primary sidearm is and what my backup gun is (and it's two that they've been shooting all day).

Most students, and the vast majority of females, end the day saying that they'll probably buy a 9mm, a few say .45ACP, a fewer say they just really like how revolvers look, and once in a blue moon someone says they'll just go with a .22LR.

Oh, and I also tell them that the very first gun they should carry is a good flashlight, and the second gun is a good folding knife.

1911Man err I mean japete says:

on 12/12/2010 9:40:07 PM

I don't think that last guy broke the rules, because HE didn't mention any caliber by numerical designator - he simply reported what his students say they're leaning toward.

Also, I think Robb is extraordinarily handsome and of perfectly sound logic and reason. I wish my japete writings were as awesome as his blog is.

Hypnagogue says:

on 12/12/2010 10:31:06 PM

Minimum 550 fpe @ 50 yards. Sectional density >1250 grains per sq. inch.

USCitizen says:

on 12/13/2010 2:56:02 AM

Between .43 and .46?

Tam says:

on 12/13/2010 10:34:57 AM

I picked my current carry caliber because that's the caliber the gun came in. :)

1911Man says:

on 12/13/2010 11:16:35 AM

You SHOULD manage a mag change immediately after your goblin is down. The fight might not be over. Goblins frequently operate in pairs or packs. After confirming that your first goblin won't be re-entering the fight (through whatever means you choose), scan for his pals while reestablishing 15+1 capacity.

Half my reason for carrying an extra mag or two is the mag, not the capacity.

I never wear a mag holder. Somehow, they're harder to conceal than the gun itself. I just slip two 7-round single-stack 1911 mags into my back pocket, or one 15-round double-stack P226 mag if that's what I'm carrying that night. And, often, an extra 6-round single-stack P238 mag or two for the backup gun. And a SureFire G2 with aftermarket Cree LED, of course.

Sadly, pants are required for this to work.

aeronathan says:

on 12/13/2010 11:46:49 AM

As a trained and practicing engineer, my first thought is "there's no such thing as an ideal caliber for every situation."

No matter what round you select, its a compromise amongst several factors, and all you can do is optimize the selection for the factors that are most important.

Main factors I can think of off the top of my head:

expanded diameter
average penetration
recoil
weapon size
capacity for a given weapon size
availability of a backup

However, each individual could have more or fewer factors.

As an example, for my daily carry, a situation where I have no ability to retreat to a rifle backup, I go with a "mid-size" round and sacrifice some expanded diameter for decreased weapon size and higher capacity. In effect I'm optimizing the length of time I can keep fighting with a concealable platform.

For the nightstand, I use a larger round, maximizing my expanded diameter at the expense of weapon size and capacity, with the knowledge that I can retreat to my AR should the need arise. I have no need for a long "fight time" capability out of a single weapon in my home.

Speakertweaker says:

on 12/13/2010 11:57:21 AM

Tam really nailed it. Now watch me screw it all up.

Pick a gun. If it fits, it hits. Is it something light/small enough for you to carry every day? If yes, check the caliber. That's probably a good caliber*.

tweaker

*Unless it's a round designed for hunting buffalo. Then, check your ID. It probably says JayG. You're beyond help;)

Robb Allen says:

on 12/13/2010 12:06:32 PM

This conversation is now going exactly where I was wanting it to ;) More on this later.

DirtCrashr says:

on 12/13/2010 12:31:23 PM

Strictly speaking caliber is simply diameter, for instance the caliber adopted by the Army in 1873 and to which it returned in 1911 remained the same, which was a smaller diameter than it's 1873 predecessor. Then during the late 1800's there was an interregnum period in which another, smaller diameter was used that proved ineffective, thus the return to the 1873 standard - until it (the smaller diameter) was used again due to its popularity among Europeans?

Tam says:

on 12/13/2010 1:00:56 PM

Being dead honest?

I used to get into huge arguments on the internets about caliber and bullet brand and bullet weight.

That went on 'til, oh, maybe '02 or '03.

In the intervening years, I have read literally dozens of books, papers, and serious articles on terminal ballistics, talked to coroners and trauma surgeons, lots of handgun hunters...

These days I just don't really think it matters in thin-skinned primates; there are a half-dozen or more service rounds and several brands of JHP that deliver nearly identical performance.

Frankly, it generally strikes me as all very dull and n00bish to even talk about these days.

I wish I had every minute I spent in the Calibers Forum at Glock Talk back to do over, because I'd spend it on the range instead.

Flighterdoc says:

on 12/13/2010 1:39:19 PM

Reliable stopping power, reliable functioning in a semi-auto pistol, big hole in bad guys, easy to control.

Sigivald says:

on 12/13/2010 2:37:20 PM

Well, for a handgun it's pretty simple, really.

Contrast "stopping power", as well as we can abstract to it, with size, weight, and felt recoil.

The first affects size and carryability vs. capacity, the second, carryability vs. capacity, and the latter depends on specific gun design as well as inherent characteristics of the cartridge.

("Stopping power" is hard to quantify in the abstract, since we're still not quite sure how the various factors all work. "Adequate penetration (8-12"+ IIRC) in ballistic gel" appears to be a decent proxy.)

As flighter says, of course, there are other requirements at the bullet-picking level; and if you want a semi-auto there are some rounds that are just impractical or nearly impossible, but that's fringe stuff.

My impression from the data is, that if you're not limited to FMJs for pseudo-legal reasons like the military is, any of the "standard" defensive calibers these days are actually perfectly good enough, and you should choose based on desired form-factor and weight limit.

The peashooter you practice with and carry is better than the cannon you leave at home because it weighs too much, or the one you never practice with because it makes your hands sting.

hypnagogue says:

on 12/13/2010 2:59:58 PM

Penetration is a good proxy for lethality (when coupled with shot placement), but it is not a proxy for stopping power. Otherwise FMJ would be the bullet type of choice.

A baseball bat has good stopping power, with no penetration.

Ancient Woodsman says:

on 12/13/2010 5:06:21 PM

How we picked our caliber: objective assessment of the work environment & hazards therein. Evaluate all LE calibers on the state contract and how they performed against common targets in the work environment. Find accurate, reliable, maintainable firearm that fits wide variety of personnel in the most consistently-performing cartridge in our work environment; after statistical analysis of test reults buy the specific cartridge brand & bullet that was most reliable & accurate.

Bob H says:

on 12/13/2010 6:10:40 PM

I am pretty n00bish. I hadn't fired a handgun since USCG boot camp, many, many years ago. My caliber was chosen by the process of elimination. I chose it based on which rental weapon felt best in my hand, which weapon I could hit the broad side of a barn with, and which one didn't leave me in pain. It took me 6 weeks (5 days a week) with a different weapon each day. Revolvers were eliminated early due to the trigger pulls, as were DA only semi-autos.
Now I have ordered and eagerly await my first owned weapon.
My wife's choice was based on weight & recoil. While she doesn't mind the volume, she is very recoil sensitive. She ended up choosing a caliber and weapon which one reviewer described as "kicks like a slightly peeved gerbil". While it is a smaller caliber, the weapon holds 20+1, and she can put all 21 rounds through a 4" hole at 40yds quickly. Perhaps someday I will shoot as well.
My work carry piece will be something smaller. Due to corporate required clothing and the nature of my job (lifting, bending, stretching, crawling on the floor while surrounded by customers) it is probably going to be a pocket gun in a small caliber. I will be back at the range next month trying those.

Ian Argent says:

on 12/13/2010 6:40:28 PM

I'll be with Tam, when I can carry. Gun first, caliber second. I know which 2 calibers I wouldn't carry (I don't like shooting one and the other is just too marginal).

Caveat, I own one handgun and don't have to get below the belt to count up the number of handgun ammo types I've fired ever; even if I double up by counting the same bullet sitting atop different charges. (Oddly enough, both those cases I fired from revolvers loaded alternately)

ExurbanKevin says:

on 12/13/2010 6:53:39 PM

1. Have a good selection of proven, reliable self-defense ammunition
2. Be inexpensive enough so that I am encouraged to practice with it regularly without undue financial hardship
3. Be shown to deliver adequate (for want of a better term) "stopping power" in most self-defense situations outside of having to take down a charging Cape Buffalo.
4. Provide enough magazine capacity to deal with the immediate threat and maybe one of two of said (former) threat's buddies.
5. Allow me to conduct a "failure" or "Mozambique" drill against a threat if needed and still have enough ammunition left in the pistol to deal with other threats in the area if needed without reloading.

Tommy says:

on 12/13/2010 7:00:38 PM

The caliber you carry every day, practice with regularly and are not often surprised by. Preferably in a pistol that you know and are very comfortable with. For the rest, all you need to do is stop the action. You don't need to make the BG asplode, just to make them stop whatever they are doing to you, and hopefully make them think twice before trying it on someone else.

dusty says:

on 12/14/2010 6:01:44 AM

Most successful use by homeowners/good guys to kill goblins in recent history (~ 10 years). Sure, there may be problems collecting the data, and there may be selection bias. Efficacy decisions should be based on data for the desired endpoint, not surrogte endpoints.

rjoiner says:

on 12/14/2010 9:58:32 AM

Oh so long ago, when I chose my defense piece, I thought long and hard about why I wanted it in the first place.

I wanted something I could use at home, in the car, out and about, for camping and hiking, and for if the SHTF and I had to bug out, hunker down, or otherwise.

Note, none of that was for fun, excitement, competitions, sport, etc.

I wanted the same ammunition in all situations, to ease practice costs and maximize training.

I looked through, and fired all the major ammo types of the time, through at least 2-3 different weapons. (except 10mm, since no one I knew at the time owned one or would rent one)

I found that many ammo types covered the basics of defense... A well placed first round was accurate, and the "power" was good enough for all of them.

But I found, the lighter the round, the faster I could be on the second and later rounds. I decided that mattered more to me, and I wasn't as concerned with the "likely" contrasting problem of having to fire more shots per critter as the rounds got lighter.

There's an important point here... I own a weapon because I believe in being prepared for bad things to happen. I own a weapon with lots of capacity that I can quickly bring back to target, because bad things can happen and I might have to fire twice, or more. I can miss. Have a dud or misfire. critter might be hopped up on PCP, or have several friends.

I'm constantly amazed by the number of gunnies who carry cause they might need it, but then go all optomistic about how they only need 1 shot cause their elephant gun ammo can knock a critter 10 feet back in one hit.

Anyway... My choice for defense was made. Then I looked at my other wants... Critter control (hiking and camping, so real critters)... Animals not being human, the criteria changed. Loud noises are often very effective, so extra mag capacity means having the option to make loud noises. If you're in Bear territory, this is very, very important. On the flip side, small rounds have been known to just make big bears angry. Since even the high end defense rounds aren't much more effective on bear, and are overkill for the smaller critters, more capacity makes sense. I'll admit, I was also concerned by the weight factor. Every extra ounce gets multiplied by each mile you hike. I once spent serious money to change my cookware to titanium cause it was a few ounces lighter than the stuff I had at the time. and I was happy to do so.

Finally, I considered SHTF mode. Certain ammo is easy to find, other calibers are near impossible. I asked myself, if SHTF and you had to loot for ammo, what's most likely to be found? If SHTF and you had to loot bodies to get ammo, what's the most likely to be found, and in quantity? Finally, if the SHTF so bad that using armory ammo was necessary, what caliber was going to be there, and in the most bulk.

All of that thinking gave me a good idea of what I wanted, and I've not regretted the choice, lo these many years gone by.

McThag says:

on 12/14/2010 12:05:33 PM

It should be reinforced, over and over, that it's not just the cartridge, but the cartridge and gun.

There's a particularly useless teeny handgun chambered for a round that's just fine for small game in a rifle...

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