Sharp as a Marble - My shooting problem

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My shooting problem

Range Time

I hit the range last night and was nominally happy with my shooting. I took the Para Gun Blog .45 out for a spin and, like always, I seem to have a pitch problem when shooting rapidly.

If I take my time, I can nail the black, but when I attempt to get the pistol back on target rapidly for a follow up shot, this is what always happens

Every string ends up with a vertical line that slightly veers off to the left (I don’t have a scan of the actual targets because I was flustered and tossed them). I can’t tell if the string starts at the bottom and works its way up or vice versa, but I’ll be damned if I don’t always end up with a vertical-ish line when I shoot faster.

I realize this seems like a problem with jerking the trigger or tightening the finger during firing (and possibly breaking my wrist down), but the problem goes away if I fire very slowly and I can’t seem to ‘feel’ anything wrong while I’m shooting. How does one correct this problem.

I would like to say that while I get flustered when my shots get a few inches apart, I’m still amazed at how many people I see shooting at 15 yards whose targets look like they were peppered with an automatic rifle fired with one hand.

posted @ 11/11/2010 10:26:58 AM

Comments

LC Scotty says:

on 11/11/2010 10:42:12 AM

Take your digital camera and film your string as a movie. If the cammie is on a table top tripod you should be able to zoom in sufficiently to see the holes...

DJ says:

on 11/11/2010 10:45:27 AM

How does one correct this problem? Easy. Use a bigger target.

Hah. I crack me up.

RauÃ°bjorn says:

on 11/11/2010 10:47:08 AM

Sounds like you're jerking the trigger.

Robb Allen says:

on 11/11/2010 10:50:38 AM

Take your digital camera and film your string as a movie.

That won't happen at Shoot Straight. They don't allow cameras, reloads, or a whole plethora of things. I'm surprised they allow people to fire live ammunition there.

I'll have to do that the next time I'm at the outdoor range.

Sounds like you're jerking the trigger.

That part I know. I'm trying to determine how to correct that.

alan says:

on 11/11/2010 10:58:44 AM

Put a laser on your gun and dry fire with it. You'll see the jerk when it happens.

If you're right handed the pattern says you're pushing to the left with your index finger and jerking down. Probably a flinch.

Robb Allen says:

on 11/11/2010 11:01:57 AM

Dryfiring won't help in this case. When I slow fire, I'm pretty damned accurate. It's the follow up shots that are getting me. So I'm jerking the trigger on the follow up shots, but how do I mentally correct that during range sessions?

Kris says:

on 11/11/2010 11:08:31 AM

You solve this issue in 2 easy steps and you'll make a mint from the guys that AREN'T satisfied by their "targets that look like they were peppered with an automatic rifle".

The classic ways to solve this are:
+ Ball n' dummy drills -- have snap caps populated randomly throughout your mags. Both shows your flinch as well as you mentally are realizing that the next round could be a dummy.
+ Go back to shooting .22LR pistols when the flinch shows up. Gradually work your way back up to larger bore pistols
+ I've also heard the line "recoil won't hurt you...just roll with it." The idea is get yourself brainwashed that recoil doesn't hurt you...just pushes you around a bit. Let it happen vs fighting it (which is what the jerking the trigger / squeezing the grip is getting you).

Let me know if you solve it...I battle the same issue. Makes me want to design a target that has 2 bullseyes...1 that I aim at and 1 where my bullets land.

Justin Buist says:

on 11/11/2010 11:14:07 AM

Grab a .22 pistol and keep practicing until you get rid of the bad habits.

Jeff says:

on 11/11/2010 12:09:39 PM

I'll second the ball and dummy recommendation. Also, focus on calling every shot. You should know where the hole is before you look at the target based on where the front sight was when it lifted in recoil.

Carl says:

on 11/11/2010 12:42:47 PM

It probably isn't a flinch in your case, it's either an increase in trigger pressure or pulling the muzzle down to try to return to target faster. In either case it's your muscle memory doing it. A drill I'd recommend is getting a metronome and practice rhythmic trigger squeeze at increasing speeds with concentration on letting your point aiming reflex bring you back on target--the feeling is that you're "pushing" the gun back onto target instead of "pulling" it down. The other thing that helped me with a similar issue was to practice it with a looser grip to exaggerate the recoil and allow a natural settle--seems counterintuitive but it worked for me.

And yeah, I laugh at the seven-yard shooters whose targets look like a single shot of large buckshot was used. Bonus points if they're using a laser and I track the red dot going up and right just as they shoot. ;-)

Jeff says:

on 11/11/2010 1:39:51 PM

Following on Carl's point: A key thing I learned from Brian Enos' writings is that it doesn't matter at all how far the muzzle moves off target in recoil, as long as it settles back on the target.

Stuart the Viking says:

on 11/11/2010 1:49:27 PM

Really? I haven't had any issues with the Shoot Strait(s) over here in the Orlando area. They have never checked my ammo and if they have a "no-reloads" policy I sure haven't seen it. I'm not saying it isn't there, but I'm not one to pay too much attention to rules that don't apply to me since I don't reload. I have been thinking about starting to reload though, so I'll have to look. I'm not sure I would bother to follow a no-reloads rule anyway since they aren't checking. I'm not one to follow the rules when they aren't enforced when I don't agree with them.

BTW, I have an excuse for why my target always looks like someone hit it with buckshot from a 10" barrel... I'm a TERRIBLE SHOT! I certianly hope I never have to shoot a burgler, he might just piss himself with laughter before I actually hit him.

s

Robb Allen says:

on 11/11/2010 2:05:48 PM

At the Tampa location, they're so pissy about it, the rummage through your bag to make sure. Sometimes. Not all the time. But twice I've had to leave because of it.

Tony says:

on 11/11/2010 2:19:24 PM

Sounds like you may be yanking the trigger, trying to force the shot to break sooner? In that case you need to work on a smoother trigger pull. Start with a slower cadence of fire and gradually increase the speed while concentrating on keeping your technique clean. Only go as fast as you can keep your hits where you want them. Remember to keep that trigger stroke smooth. No speeding up, no yanking, a steady press from start to finish. It can be a very quick stroke, once you get your technique down, but it must above all else be a smooth one.

Do you get the same problem with the first shot from a fast draw or presentation, or is this only when firing multiple round strings? If you jerk the trigger on the draw stroke, you have something you can work on at home without live ammunition. Again, remember, only go as fast as you are actually able to. Getting a clean break is crucial.

Whatever approach you take on this issue, work on working that trigger smoothly, and accept that short term, your split times are going to suffer. Smoothness must come before speed. Slow down to where you are smooth and start working faster incrementally.

Oh and lastly, if this is a persistent problem, don't let it get to you. Work on it, but after a while let it go and focus on some other aspect of your shooting. Then come back to it the next time.

Jeff says:

on 11/11/2010 2:37:31 PM

Good advice Tony, though I take issue with one thing. Trying to 'slow down' keeps you focusing on speed, which may be the original problem. Instead of thinking 'slow down', think 'see the sights well and work the trigger smoothly'. This will naturally take longer at first, but that's not where your mental focus should be.

The end goal isn't to shoot slower, it's to shoot more accurately at speed.

Tom says:

on 11/11/2010 2:43:47 PM

While I agree that it's probably a technique problem, it couldn't hurt to try a mechanical solution. You may try a lighter recoil spring. It could be that the recoil spring is too heavy for your load and causing the slide the slam closed harder than necessary. When it slams this dips the muzzle down.

Robb Allen says:

on 11/11/2010 2:50:25 PM

Tom, this happens regardless if I'm shooting 230 or 180 grain .45's or 155 or 180 gr. 10mm.

Hell, if I go too fast with the .22, it happens.

I think the best answer so far is "slow down to the point where each round is hitting the center and gradually increase speed until you got it" as this only happens during rapid fire.

Rauðbjorn says:

on 11/11/2010 3:16:48 PM

Some qustions:
Can you tell me what portion of your trigger finger is in contact with the trigger while firing?

What are you shooting? Sometimes we develop a recoil-flinch that can be overcome by moving to a lighter piece to retrain, then moving back to the heavier piece.

And finally what grip are you using? improper or less-than-optimal grip can result in trigger jerking due to placement of the hands.

1911Man says:

on 11/11/2010 3:24:05 PM

I'm going with a different theory. Your trigger work is probably fine. It's your OTHER fingers that are causing the problem.

I have the same 7 o'clock stringing problem. With me, it's inconsistent squeeze by the pinky and ring fingers on my right hand, I'm pretty sure.

I'm not the biggest dude in the room, but my grip strength is at the pointy end of the bell curve.

Try a few rapid-ish-fire mags, ignoring trigger finger AND sight picture mostly, and try to focus on strong-side hand squeeze consistency.

Also, I find that my first 40 or 50 rounds on any given day tend to do this, then I settle down a bit. Dunno why.

DirtCrashr says:

on 11/11/2010 6:16:25 PM

Problem? Looks like a zipper to me! Just make sure it's vertical and not horizontal.

OrangeNeck says:

on 11/11/2010 6:19:59 PM

Each subsequent shot hitting lower means you're subconsciously compensating for when the perp is falling to the ground after the first hit.

Robert says:

on 11/11/2010 7:49:13 PM

Try Pistol-Training.com's Dot Torture target. It's helped me quite a bit.

Sendarius says:

on 11/11/2010 8:58:38 PM

I think it is a grip problem.

In most cases I've seen where a shooter's target looks like that, I find that they are trying to squeeze tightly with their strong hand for better rapid-fire control.

This has issues for trigger finger control - it is harder to smoothly control your trigger finger when the other muscles and tendons in your hand and fore-arm are in rictus.

Try LOOSENING your strong-hand grip, and making up for it by tightening your WEAK-HAND grip. I use the numbers 30% strong, 70% weak, but that is just a technical way of saying "grip firmly (not tightly) with strong hand and about twice as firmly with weak hand".

ExurbanKevin says:

on 11/11/2010 9:51:44 PM

Robert says:
on 11/11/2010 7:49:13 PM
Try Pistol-Training.com's Dot Torture target. It's helped me quite a bit.

What he said.

I've practiced with the Dot-Torture drill once or so a month for the past half-year, and I love it.

The nice thing about that drill is that the mechanics mimic basic defensive gun handling skills, but it really emphasizes accurate, deliberate trigger presses.

ExtremeTolerance says:

on 11/12/2010 2:40:50 PM

I jerk on my trigger and it makes that pattern. I find practicing with a laser helps embed the muscle memory. The more laser dry fire I do the better I shoot without it.

Tim says:

on 11/12/2010 7:45:07 PM

Some good suggestions. Here's another.

Try dry firing with your eyes closed. After five shots, are you still semi on target? or are your sights now lower? If so, perhaps your natural stance is making your aim a little low.

Laughingdog says:

on 11/12/2010 8:59:58 PM

So there are ranges that ban reloads unilaterally? Banning them in the rentals makes sense. But that is ridiculous.

Jim says:

on 11/16/2010 6:10:58 AM

In addition to working on your grip (which I agree can be a problem) you might also check your sights. I am experiencing a sight issue with my Springfield Mil-Spec .45. The high combat sights that require you to cover your target works for the first and maybe second shots. After that, I'm shooting low and left in a very similar pattern to yours. I find that my natural aiming point is just below my target, so covering my target is not intuitive. When I shoot slowly and think about each shot I do not have this problem. And when I shoot handguns with a lower sight profile I also do not experience this (to the same extent, at least. I did mention a grip problem...).

Robb Allen says:

on 11/16/2010 8:58:07 AM

Jim, that's the problem I had with the Sevigny sights on my Glock. You have to obscure the target to get a hit. It's different than the 'dotting the i' method I was used to.

And that may be something I'm subconsciously doing during my shots. I'll have to check that out next time I'm at the range.

Thanks to all for the pointers.

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