Sharp as a Marble - Open carry is fine, so long as you don't do it where people can see you

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Open carry is fine, so long as you don't do it where people can see you

Open Carry

That's the gist of many gunnies I read, and it pisses me the hell off.

I can't OC because even though I live in a place that has some of the least restrictive carry laws, OC is still verboten. However, if it was allowed tomorrow, I'd OC most of the time. One, I don't buy into the whole Super Mall Ninja "I'll keep it hidden so I can surprise my attacker" shit, nor do I think the chances of me not being able to keep my gun out of the fight are worth weighing (how many of you have ever been in any situation where you needed your gun but decided against it?).

The problem is the PSH from our side about me wanting to open carry. I don't want to do it to "get into people's faces", I want to do it because it's a lot more comfortable. Yes, the added benefit is that it desensitizes people to seeing guns, and yes I have no problem with that, but that's a byproduct of OC for me. I'm an activist, what do you expect?

I keep hearing the line "For every one person you turn on, two others are turned off". Just like I do with the anti's, I demand proof of statements like that. Show me studies where people have been turned off. Show me increased demand for tighter gun control after an OC event. We keep making more and more strides towards gun ownership and yet people keep fearing this sudden backlash where everything is repealed overnight.

I agree that the whole "let's all get together and OC together" thing is an in your face approach. I don't particularly care for it myself, but I'm not going to stop others from doing so. But when Melanie Hain carried to that soccer game, there were plenty of people on our side pooh-poohing her actions as if it were the same thing. "Sure, you can open carry, but not someplace where people will have a problem with it!"

So, I guess OC'ing in my bedroom is fine, just make sure the curtains are drawn so the neighbors don't see.

posted @ 10/12/2009 9:51:43 AM

Incoming Links

Sharp as a Marble - Who needs the Brady's on 10/12/2009 2:52:26 PM

Us Second Amendment Supporters Sure are a Fickle Bunch « A Geek With Guns on 10/12/2009 3:03:15 PM

Found: One Troll » Blog Archive » Open Carry, Part the Whatever on 10/12/2009 10:17:33 PM

SayUncle » Can’t we all just get a long gun? on 10/13/2009 9:03:32 AM

The View From North Central Idaho - Open carry as a political statement on 11/15/2009 3:02:48 PM

missing out on all the fun | walls of the city on 2/19/2010 9:38:51 PM

Comments

Gregory Morris says:

on 10/12/2009 10:20:20 AM

I still wouldn't OC... But damn, do I wish it were legal in FL so I wouldn't have to worry about my shirt being blown up by a gust of wind, or someone seeing my Glock when I bend over to pick something up. I can comfortably carry my gun concealed, but I am generally less comfortable knowing that a little bit of a breeze can turn me into a criminal.

Of course, like you I don't give a damn if other people choose to OC. You are going to scare some people, and that doesn't help. It doesn't hurt either. People who are unable rationalize that you aren't a threat simply because you have a gun... well, they're likely beyond help anyway.

Bob S. says:

on 10/12/2009 10:35:50 AM

Rob,

I agree. If I could Open Carry, I would. Texas doesn't allow it yet.

There are plenty of occasions where Open Carry makes sense...say in Texas during the summer.

Well said Sir, very Well said.

Alan says:

on 10/12/2009 10:45:09 AM

It's very Zumboesque to be throwing the open carry folks under the bus so readily.

As for turning people off, the reality is that most people don't even notice and if they do notice they don't care. In this day, it's just another piece of junk hanging off a belt.

Also, the "OMG OC IS SCARING THE WHITE PEOPLE" types all seem to live in the North. Try concealed carry in Texas, Florida or any state in between in the summer. If I lived somewhere I could wear a jacket in the summer I'd probably not be very interested in OC either.

Sailorcurt says:

on 10/12/2009 11:38:14 AM

I think Virginia is a case study in why Open Carry is a good thing.

OpenCarry.org was founded in and is based in Northern Virginia. Most of the OCDO founding members are also members of VCDL.

About ten or 15 years ago, when the Open Carry movement really started going here in Virginia, we got plenty of flack from our supposed allies in the gun rights movement about how we're "scaring the white people" as Uncle likes to put it.

In my humble opinion, the open carry movement has been the single most effective tool for bringing the subject of civilian defensive firearm use to the fore. Not because there WERE incidents, but because there WERE NO incidents that were not instigated and blown out of proportion by the GFW's.

Every time some hoplophobe panicked and called the police...only to find the gun carriers peacefully enjoying a meal or otherwise minding their own business, the image of law abiding citizens carrying firearms without posing any danger whatsoever to the public was reinforced.

The hoplophobes are going to oppose any type of legal carry no matter what. They are going to try to paint gun carriers in the worst light possible no matter what.

The open carry movement has caused people who simply never gave the issue much thought, to consider it. If they weren't hoplophobes to begin with, it caused them to look at it critically, and virtually inevitably reach the conclusion that defensive firearms use by citizens at minimum does no harm.

We've gone from the days when people used to look at me warily when they noticed my gun, to talking about it openly and positively or joking about it with me. Just a few days ago, I was in a local video rental place and a guy with two little kids (about 6 to 8 years old) was behind me. One of the kids said "why does that man have a gun?" and his dad kind of laughed and said "so we won't have to worry about bad guys in here" or something to that effect.

We've gone from the days, here in Virginia, when a "man with a gun" call to 911 would result in half the city's police department being dispatched to the scene no questions asked, to the 911 operator asking "what's he doing"..."He's just sitting there eating dinner"..."is the gun in his hand or in a holster?"..."It's in a holster"..."there's nothing illegal about that sir, just ignore him and enjoy your dinner"...

I'm rambling...sorry.

The point is that I believe Virginia demonstrates that an active open carry movement does MUCH more good than harm. It demonstrates to the people who normally wouldn't give it much thought that firearms ownership and carry simply is not a threat to public safety. And, contrary to "conventional wisdom", when the GFW's go berserk about it, it doesn't make US look bad, it unequivocally demonstrates the irrational nature of their fears to anyone not suffering from the malady.

I've really been encouraged by the burgeoning open carry movements in Wisconsin, Ohio, Pennsylvania and (strangely enough) California in recent years. I sincerely hope that people in states that don't allow Open Carry continue to fight for restoration of their FULL Second Amendment rights.

Robb Allen says:

on 10/12/2009 11:42:35 AM

Sailorcurt, I need to get back on the ball to get something put in front of our legislators to restore our rights here in Florida. I'm not a politician though. I know my style of debate tends to be blunt and to the point rather than couched in the language that politics requires. That, and I have no idea of how to get a group together to start pressing for OC here in Florida.

If you've got any former members who might be here in the Sunshine state, or anyone who might want to get their hands dirty here, I'd greatly appreciate a note!

Alan says:

on 10/12/2009 12:19:47 PM

Great points Sailorcurt.

OC bills were introduced in Texas this year but got held up by something else. Hopefully it will get through next time.

Skullz says:

on 10/12/2009 12:20:45 PM

"That's the gist of many gunnies I read, and it pisses me the hell off."

It's also the gist of a certain Snowflake blogger - in one of today's posts.

Please excuse me if I'm making some sort of cross linking etiquette faux pas.

http://www.snowflakesinhell.com/2009/10/12/winning-hearts-and-minds-in-scranton/#comment-51056

Yuri Orlov says:

on 10/12/2009 12:21:03 PM

Great post Robb!

Gregory Morris says:

on 10/12/2009 12:23:51 PM

opencarry.org has a florida group with a petition.

Tom says:

on 10/12/2009 12:53:07 PM

You talking about plaxico sebastian?

Robb Allen says:

on 10/12/2009 12:59:22 PM

Ironically, I wasn't. He just happened to go off like clockwork.

Eseell says:

on 10/12/2009 1:16:30 PM

Agreed completely. I OC fairly frequently (about 50/50 with CC) and I've only had trouble once. I was at Best Buy and the security guy mentioned that someone had complained. I was not asked to leave, but it was implied that it would be nice for them if I made my purchases swiftly.

I've never had any incidents with the police, they're always very friendly when I see them in the Stop-and-Rob.

Phil says:

on 10/12/2009 4:53:42 PM

We have OC in Ohio, but people freak out, so I don't do it.

Here are two other interesting facts.

No Pizza for Open Carry Gun Families
Gunslingers twice rejected from family dining establishments
http://www.boiseweekly.com/boise/no-pizza-for-open-carry-gun-families/Content?oid=1225835

And a nice graph:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/10/graph_of_the_day_for_october_8.html

Robb Allen says:

on 10/12/2009 5:39:41 PM

Phil, I cannot disagree with an establishment refusing service to people as they see fit. I may not like it, and I would not dine at those facilities myself (thus exercising my right of free association just like them), but thems the breaks.

Interesting though how the more gun ownership there is, the less crime.

Phil says:

on 10/12/2009 5:51:55 PM

Rob, I agree, I wouldn't go to those places either or to the places with the No Concealed Carry stickers.

Linoge says:

on 10/12/2009 6:11:56 PM

*sigh* Damn you, Robb, for stealing all the thoughts that were bouncing around my head and putting them to bytes before I could. My people will be contacting you concerning intellectual property theft shortly.

aczarnowski says:

on 10/12/2009 6:20:16 PM

Hey. Some of us Yankees have to deal with hot and humid too! Thankfully the mosquitoes died when the snow started falling a couple days back.

Here in MN the carry law was written so that a shirt blowing up didn't bust us (amazing!). Therefore, we can OC.

I still don't, humid or not. I like the thin veneer of security through obscurity. And I don't want to take on the retension issues I feel many carriers ignore. But for those going about their business of not getting in everybody else's business, more power to ya.

It's a personal choice and who am I to push my view of the world on others?

Joat says:

on 10/12/2009 9:54:48 PM

I'm in not so warm and sunny MN also, I open carry most of the summer here, but it's the end of OC season now a 4" barrel pistol doesn't show even in an OWB holster.

I've had more positive response from people who notice than negative. I was in the grocery store a few weeks ago and the girl running the check out noticed, after the is that a real gun and are you a cop ect. her words were "That's cool I didn't know you could do that here." I gave her the basic info on getting a MN permit to carry and left with my dinner.

johnnyreb™ says:

on 10/12/2009 9:55:49 PM

I made a comment on my latest post about how "I have never understood why she (Meleanie Hain) would carry openly if she had a LTC" to a soccer match.

Here in Ohio a "man with a gun" call WILL result in a conversation with the local Police.

As Sailorcurt has pointed in his reply here (and I had no idea there had been that much progress in VA) that physical activism really does works.

Maybe I should be more pro-active, so that my fellow citizens of this state will someday see this normal behavior ...

Don Meaker says:

on 10/13/2009 8:29:11 AM

In Texas we had something called a " barbeque gun" that was extra special pretty. When you were invited to a barbeque you brought your pretty gun, so that you would have a conversation piece that would break the ice. Of course if anyone tried to buck the line for ribs, it would be a really really bad idea.

Kirk Parker says:

on 10/13/2009 12:43:43 PM

"I like the thin veneer of security through obscurity."

That veneer is so thin that it's actually completely non-existent. Can you find even a single, documented instance of a case where an open carrier was assaulted where a cc'er wouldn't have been?

jdege says:

on 10/13/2009 12:47:20 PM

The greatest weapon the hoplophobes have is their ability to portray gun ownership as something perverse and unusual. Someone can grow up surrounded by guns, with widespread gun ownership and use by neighbors and extended family members, and be entirely unaware of it - because anti-gun prejudice has far too many gun owners being quiet about it. Particularly in anti-gun parts of the country. Even in Massachusetts or New York, one in four households owns a gun, but you'd never have known that from listening to the public discourse.

In my mind, the greatest benefit of the shall-issue movement is the way it eliminates this weapon from the anti-gunner's arsenal. The anti-gunners will, of course, continue to lie. But they can no longer lie convincingly with regard to the rarity and perversity of gun ownership, when it is a matter of public record that there are hundreds of thousands of licensed gun owners wandering around the state, clearly causing no problems.

That's why I don't get upset when I see those "no guns" signs. Every one is an advertisement for the fact that any law abiding citizen has the choice, in that state, to obtain a license and carry a gun, and that hundreds of thousands do.

As for open carry, I think there are good tactical reasons not to, in most circumstances. But I think it is essential, from a political view, that we do push the boundaries in a careful way. We want to constrain the intellectual space in which gun ownership is abhorrent, and expand the space in which carry is accepted and common.

But we don't want to create hysteria.

What we want, when people see someone carrying a gun, is that they think it's a perfectly ordinary person who happens to be carrying a gun. What we want is that when some hoplophobe makes that "man with a gun" call, that it is she who comes off looking like a hysterical fool, rather than the gun owner who comes off looking like a dangerous lunatic.

aczarnowski says:

on 10/13/2009 1:16:54 PM

Can you find even a single, documented instance of a case where an open carrier was assaulted where a cc'er wouldn't have been?

That just takes us off into the weeds.

I *like* my perception of security through obscurity. It doesn't have to have proven tactical metrics behind it. It's what works for me and it regularly secures my time against people engaging me about why I'm carrying.

But coming back up onto the road from the oncoming ditch side, the nucleus of the issue is that OC/CC is a personal choice. Shooting (ahem) across the circle because you feel squishy about someone's particular choice isn't helpful.

jdege says:

on 10/13/2009 1:23:11 PM

Can you find even a single, documented instance of a case where an open carrier was assaulted where a cc'er wouldn't have been?
That's not the only risk.

How many people who were carrying openly have been falsely accused of threatening someone with a gun? How many who were carrying concealed?

cargosquid says:

on 10/13/2009 1:31:38 PM

As SailorCurt says, Open Carry in Va is excellent due to the hard work of many brave activists. Its gotten so good that the Norfolk police have been sued successfully for harassment. Besides, in VA, concealed will become open anytime you decide to eat in a restaurant that serves alcohol. While, I don't OC, I do believe that the more publicity the better for the cause.

But, you should get a retention holster and training to retain. Too many idiots out there....

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